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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duckhen wrote:
The BBAR was won many times by a chap who only did sweet spot work.....lots of it mind


Sort of. Although to win the BBAR you also need to do regular 100 and 210 minute max efforts, so just looking at training side is a bit naughty, 'cos it's an event where the races are part of the training. I also believe they did many high effort 10's and 25's.
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
duckhen wrote:
The BBAR was won many times by a chap who only did sweet spot work.....lots of it mind


Sort of. Although to win the BBAR you also need to do regular 100 and 210 minute max efforts, so just looking at training side is a bit naughty, 'cos it's an event where the races are part of the training. I also believe they did many high effort 10's and 25's.


So actually it was a pretty rounded training program Wink
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duckhen wrote:
. Personally I swim OK and go around 65-70 mins on an IM swim...avoiding the biff and 'cruising' at a fairly good pace.


Where do you think the biff is most prevalent in the swim? Rolling starts will obviously have reduced it a lot. I would have thought the MOP would be the worst place, where there are a lot of 'weaker' swimmers flailing their arms wildly and bouncing off each other as a result of poor navigation and keep slowing to look up?
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duckhen




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
duckhen wrote:
The BBAR was won many times by a chap who only did sweet spot work.....lots of it mind


Sort of. Although to win the BBAR you also need to do regular 100 and 210 minute max efforts, so just looking at training side is a bit naughty, 'cos it's an event where the races are part of the training. I also believe they did many high effort 10's and 25's.


So actually it was a pretty rounded training program Wink


About as rounded as the OP began with.......and what intensity is a max effort 210 minute session ?
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duckhen wrote:
About as rounded as the OP began with.......and what intensity is a max effort 210 minute session ?


More than sweet spot - sweet spot is defined as an intensity below max - sweet spot for 1 hour is different to sweet spot for 2 hours or 5 hours.

Some people do claim that sweet spot is a percentage of FTP, but if you use that definition then a BBAR competitor would be doing high intensity training as the sweet spot by that definition would be above the intensity of any of their race events.
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duckhen




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
duckhen wrote:
. Personally I swim OK and go around 65-70 mins on an IM swim...avoiding the biff and 'cruising' at a fairly good pace.


Where do you think the biff is most prevalent in the swim? Rolling starts will obviously have reduced it a lot. I would have thought the MOP would be the worst place, where there are a lot of 'weaker' swimmers flailing their arms wildly and bouncing off each other as a result of poor navigation and keep slowing to look up?


i generally experience biff at turns, so the events i have taken part in where there is a slight turn approx 30 m off the beach and where there is a 90 degree turn approx 200m from start neither event had rolling start when i did them. Biff can also occur at any point where swimmers converge so if i find myself in the middle of a pack of a few athletes and several may be trying to get on the feet of a lead swimmer. Where do you think it is?

All this justification just because I supported the OP in their decision to rerun the training which gave them their best season and that I have advocated a steady state training regime for some might be suitable.

Ultimately whatever training you do be consistent and enjoy it.
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duckhen




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
duckhen wrote:
About as rounded as the OP began with.......and what intensity is a max effort 210 minute session ?


More than sweet spot - sweet spot is defined as an intensity below max - sweet spot for 1 hour is different to sweet spot for 2 hours or 5 hours.

Some people do claim that sweet spot is a percentage of FTP, but if you use that definition then a BBAR competitor would be doing high intensity training as the sweet spot by that definition would be above the intensity of any of their race events.


OK Jim, i give in.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duckhen wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
duckhen wrote:
. Personally I swim OK and go around 65-70 mins on an IM swim...avoiding the biff and 'cruising' at a fairly good pace.


Where do you think the biff is most prevalent in the swim? Rolling starts will obviously have reduced it a lot. I would have thought the MOP would be the worst place, where there are a lot of 'weaker' swimmers flailing their arms wildly and bouncing off each other as a result of poor navigation and keep slowing to look up?


i generally experience biff at turns, so the events i have taken part in where there is a slight turn approx 30 m off the beach and where there is a 90 degree turn approx 200m from start neither event had rolling start when i did them. Biff can also occur at any point where swimmers converge so if i find myself in the middle of a pack of a few athletes and several may be trying to get on the feet of a lead swimmer. Where do you think it is?

All this justification just because I supported the OP in their decision to rerun the training which gave them their best season and that I have advocated a steady state training regime for some might be suitable.


This isn't Slowtwitch, my question was asking your opinion, not being snarky Very Happy Agree that 'pinch points' are where it occurs; that and mass starts. Between turns, I've never really experienced much biff swimming 60:00 IM or high 20s HIM etc. In all my Ironman distance events, which have all been mass/wave starts, I haven't really experienced it at the start either, as people have self-seeded well. I also think that swimmers that go sub 65ish, are pretty proficient at swimming straight & navigating.
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tin pot




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duckhen wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
duckhen wrote:
. Personally I swim OK and go around 65-70 mins on an IM swim...avoiding the biff and 'cruising' at a fairly good pace.


Where do you think the biff is most prevalent in the swim? Rolling starts will obviously have reduced it a lot. I would have thought the MOP would be the worst place, where there are a lot of 'weaker' swimmers flailing their arms wildly and bouncing off each other as a result of poor navigation and keep slowing to look up?


i generally experience biff at turns, so the events i have taken part in where there is a slight turn approx 30 m off the beach and where there is a 90 degree turn approx 200m from start neither event had rolling start when i did them. Biff can also occur at any point where swimmers converge so if i find myself in the middle of a pack of a few athletes and several may be trying to get on the feet of a lead swimmer. Where do you think it is?

All this justification just because I supported the OP in their decision to rerun the training which gave them their best season and that I have advocated a steady state training regime for some might be suitable.

Ultimately whatever training you do be consistent and enjoy it.


Well, I appreciated it duckhen! Screw those other losers Laughing

On biff, it exists mostly whenever an athlete is arrogant enough to self-justify it. Mostlyf the flailing swimmers are the ones who stop and apologise for the contact!
...Iím probably more the former than the latter Blush
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tin pot




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Volume not intensity Reply with quote

tin pot wrote:
duckhen wrote:
tin pot wrote:
Right - screw that short, intense, regular training for a game of soldiers! Itís useless! Wink

Iíve looked back to my best season, 2016, and replicating the training I did then.

Swim twice a week 6-8km total
Cycling 200-300km per week
Running 20-30km per week

No run intervals for the rest of summer! Smile All easy running except for the hills.

Bike will be all around the 45km +600m commute in, and again home.

Swim intervals can Sod Off too. Get in, get 4K done, get on with life. Boom.



What could go wrong? Hahaha Laughing

Iím going to tear Hever a new arsehole in September. Twisted Evil



Was just browsing looking for an answer to a question around basic speed and saw this......so hows it been going and is a new arse still going to get arranged?

I think some people respond better to steady state ......pushing threshold up from below.........some need the intervals to be more intense.....pulling threshold up from above. Either way you need the endurance.


Feels good and is enjoyable so far. The heat and a surfing injury has curtailed things a bit, but still within the ball park..

Only difference is that Iím doing three shorter swims per week and would like to have done more bike.

The challenge is to reduce the intensity in the bike. Iíve got a commute this morning I got at about 80% needs to be down below 70% for race prep.


So this seems to have worked out really quickly. My ride in though I though was easier was the same as previous rides and came out with higher intensity and training stress. I did some analysis in TrainerRoad and identified where Iíd pushed the higher efforts - was quite surprised how much time I spent around and way above FTP - made sure I kept a lid on it on the way home and reduced the intensity to 0.63 with only a couple of minutes added.

Early days, but encouraging if Iím to perform better come September Smile
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Iron Ď17 16h11, '16 14h30
Half Iron Ď18 DNF, '17 7h39, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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PCP




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
duckhen wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
duckhen wrote:
. Personally I swim OK and go around 65-70 mins on an IM swim...avoiding the biff and 'cruising' at a fairly good pace.


Where do you think the biff is most prevalent in the swim? Rolling starts will obviously have reduced it a lot. I would have thought the MOP would be the worst place, where there are a lot of 'weaker' swimmers flailing their arms wildly and bouncing off each other as a result of poor navigation and keep slowing to look up?


i generally experience biff at turns, so the events i have taken part in where there is a slight turn approx 30 m off the beach and where there is a 90 degree turn approx 200m from start neither event had rolling start when i did them. Biff can also occur at any point where swimmers converge so if i find myself in the middle of a pack of a few athletes and several may be trying to get on the feet of a lead swimmer. Where do you think it is?

All this justification just because I supported the OP in their decision to rerun the training which gave them their best season and that I have advocated a steady state training regime for some might be suitable.


This isn't Slowtwitch, my question was asking your opinion, not being snarky Very Happy Agree that 'pinch points' are where it occurs; that and mass starts. Between turns, I've never really experienced much biff swimming 60:00 IM or high 20s HIM etc. In all my Ironman distance events, which have all been mass/wave starts, I haven't really experienced it at the start either, as people have self-seeded well. I also think that swimmers that go sub 65ish, are pretty proficient at swimming straight & navigating.


In my experience Iíve never really had biff apart from when I was massively overconfident in an Oly and started way to close to the front. 65,67 & 69 IM swims and 31-35 min HIMís.
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TRO Saracen




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]

This isn't Slowtwitch, my question was asking your opinion, not being snarky Very Happy Agree that 'pinch points' are where it occurs; that and mass starts. Between turns, I've never really experienced much biff swimming 60:00 IM or high 20s HIM etc. In all my Ironman distance events, which have all been mass/wave starts, I haven't really experienced it at the start either, as people have self-seeded well. I also think that swimmers that go sub 65ish, are pretty proficient at swimming straight & navigating.[/quote]

I found the level of biff reduced as I've gone from terrible (1:35 IM/46 HIM) to OK (1:05 IM 31-32 HIM). Most biff is really flailing arms, poor naivigation, sudden stopping to sight/do breastroke for a bit plus a lot of BOPers are in borderline panic mode and swimming in a frenzy.

If I ever get better still I'd expect the level of biff to go up again as fighting for a good position in a lead pack/on feet and knowing you are swimming with rivals who you need to beat to the line to KQ etc becomes more critical.
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JaRok2300




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worst biff I've ever experienced was at the relays in Nottingham.

I was too near the front as went in with a friend who's a much better swimmer than me and was messing with my watch when the siren went off as there was no countdown.
It felt like the whole field swam over me and I had to swim with my head up for the next 100m or so as I couldn't get my breathing back under control.

Everyone I know says it's the roughest swim they've been in (500m with a 20 minute rest afterwards doesn't lend itself to steady pacing) but I definitely made it far worse than it need be. Hopefully learnt some lessons for next week!
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:

If I ever get better still I'd expect the level of biff to go up again as fighting for a good position in a lead pack/on feet and knowing you are swimming with rivals who you need to beat to the line to KQ etc becomes more critical.


In reality though, to be FOP in the older AGs, you're just going to be swimming in with the sub 65 min group, and the biff there is limited anyway from experience. How many events start people in AG waves these days? IM70.3 St Polten is my only experience of that. I guess 70.3 WC does it, and you'll get plenty of M40-59 Type A douchebags needlessly biffing there....so in that case you'd be spot on!

For non WC races in the Vet AGs, a sub 65/30 swim is pretty 'FOP' though; because the 'MO' there is 'hang-in on the Swim, HAMMER the Bike, hang-in on the Run'. Oh, the number of times fellow Vets have caught me on the bike grinding those big gears away with their huge calves...I'm thinking see ya again later potater Very Happy
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Doca




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaRok2300 wrote:
Worst biff I've ever experienced was at the relays in Nottingham.



Good. I'm in for the relays next week, one of the main reasons is to practice coping with some swim biff that has been a problem for me in the past.
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