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Where are the TT bikes with Disc Brakes?
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
GrahamO wrote:

Allegedly 'better' brakes on a bike - a solution looking for a problem which doesn't exist in the overwhelming majority of use.


You may only need them once...


Logical fallacy. You donít wear a full motorbike face helmet all the time for that one event that might otherwise kill you. Or do you wear donkey repellent when you cycle because you are statistically more likely to be kicked to death by a donkey than die while cycling ?

Risk perception doesnít work as you appear to think.
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand this fascination some people have with rim brakes. I come to cycling from racing motorbikes. One of the first thing I thought when I rode a road bike bike is how crap the brakes are, honestly people they are #@?#! If you don't think your rim brakes are holding you back on a road bike then I can only imagine you have such poor bike handling skills that you are unable to tell the difference.
On my Shiv TT bike I have aluminum rims with Tririg brakes and swisstop pads one of the best setups you could probably have. In IM wales in September I would be faster if I had disc brakes because I would be able to go into the corners faster & carry more speed.
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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
GrahamO wrote:

Allegedly 'better' brakes on a bike - a solution looking for a problem which doesn't exist in the overwhelming majority of use.


You may only need them once...


Logical fallacy. You donít wear a full motorbike face helmet all the time for that one event that might otherwise kill you. Or do you wear donkey repellent when you cycle because you are statistically more likely to be kicked to death by a donkey than die while cycling ?

Risk perception doesnít work as you appear to think.

You're messing up avoidance with mitigation.

I'd like to see the official stats in regards to the donkey kicking btw.

And the UAE must be sh!t since I've never been there.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:

Which technology do you think I've advocated for ?


You've advocated for technological progress; and in the process called me and others 'luddites'. In my case, I think it was when I scoffed at Apple making a proprietary headphone plug for their new Bluetooth headphones. Wired headphones work just fine, don't need charging, and have superior sound quality; so why change, other than purely for wireless convenience Smile

The principle of improving braking (and therefore safety) is a compelling one.
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doca wrote:
I don't understand this fascination some people have with rim brakes. I come to cycling from racing motorbikes. One of the first thing I thought when I rode a road bike bike is how crap the brakes are, honestly people they are #@?#! If you don't think your rim brakes are holding you back on a road bike then I can only imagine you have such poor bike handling skills that you are unable to tell the difference.
On my Shiv TT bike I have aluminum rims with Tririg brakes and swisstop pads one of the best setups you could probably have. In IM wales in September I would be faster if I had disc brakes because I would be able to go into the corners faster & carry more speed.


1. A motor bike speed can kill you and others very easily. There is no comparison with a bicycle.

2. No, the vast majority have been riding the Alps on rm brakes for decades without any real difficulty.

3. Not everyone is held back by rim brakes. Only people with big unjustified ego's think they are. I can hazard a guess which you are.

4. Brakes do not make you faster. Being able to stop more quickly does not make you faster. Going into corners at a given speed has zero to do with your brake type. What matters in corners is how much traction there is between your tyre and the road surface and its the same for both brake types.

5. Top 10 at IM Wales might have a point but you don't and neither do the other 99% of the competitors, which is my point.

I don't understand your obsession with a technology which puts a couple of kg onto your bike while you spends thousands shaving grammes off a wheel or pedal.

You've had one too many knocks on your motor bike helmet to think rationally Very Happy
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
You've advocated for technological progress; and in the process called me and others 'luddites'. In my case, I think it was when I scoffed at Apple making a proprietary headphone plug for their new Bluetooth headphones. Wired headphones work just fine, don't need charging, and have superior sound quality; so why change, other than purely for wireless convenience Smile

The principle of improving braking (and therefore safety) is a compelling one.


I advocate technological progress when there is evidence which supports the change and a problem to be solved. There is zero compelling or independent evidence that 'rim brakes are worse' and no evidence that there is any problem to be solved.

If there is, then post it here.

As to the bluetooth think I'd agree with you however there was a demand - longer battery life in smaller form factor phones. The main reason why phones could not get smaller/thinner, was the physical size of the headphone socket as it was the limiting factor.. A mass market of people wanted smaller thinner phones so the market met that demand for them.

Disc brakes for road bikes were created without anyone demanding them en masse. There were no big demnds from users pleading for them. They were just another excuse to get people to spend money on things they didnt actually ask for or even need.

But hey, buy them if you like.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
3. Not everyone is held back by rim brakes. Only people with big unjustified ego's think they are. I can hazard a guess which you are.

Probably now opening myself up to the same, but is there any need to personally attack people (I'm presuming) you don't know in the middle of a debate? You seem to do it all the time.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
GrahamO wrote:
3. Not everyone is held back by rim brakes. Only people with big unjustified ego's think they are. I can hazard a guess which you are.

Probably now opening myself up to the same, but is there any need to personally attack people (I'm presuming) you don't know in the middle of a debate? You seem to do it all the time.


He attacked, I responded. Read his post if you can get past his ego and generalisations.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:

4. Brakes do not make you faster. Being able to stop more quickly does not make you faster. Going into corners at a given speed has zero to do with your brake type. What matters in corners is how much traction there is between your tyre and the road surface and its the same for both brake types.


I think if you look at the components used in motorsport, they would suggest your argument isn't watertight. Yes, I agree completely with the argument about traction, but in order to bring a car or motorbike down within the limits of a tyre's traction around a corner, you have to be able to brake efficiently and rapidly, establish limit of traction, and then the motor propels it out again. It's a combination of traction and braking efficiency. That's why a Zonda has bigger more powerful disc brakes than a Fiesta, so it can (safely) exploit that superior speed/performance (and tyres).

Back to road bikes though - carbon rims make sh!t braking surfaces, especially in the wet. In this case discs are the solution for better braking. Have I already said that? Very Happy
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
GrahamO wrote:

Allegedly 'better' brakes on a bike - a solution looking for a problem which doesn't exist in the overwhelming majority of use.


You may only need them once...


Logical fallacy. You donít wear a full motorbike face helmet all the time for that one event that might otherwise kill you. Or do you wear donkey repellent when you cycle because you are statistically more likely to be kicked to death by a donkey than die while cycling ?

Risk perception doesnít work as you appear to think.

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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
GrahamO wrote:

Allegedly 'better' brakes on a bike - a solution looking for a problem which doesn't exist in the overwhelming majority of use.


You may only need them once...


Logical fallacy. You donít wear a full motorbike face helmet all the time for that one event that might otherwise kill you.

think.


No, you wear one to reduce the risk of injury in case of an accident...
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GrahamO




Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Back to road bikes though - carbon rims make sh!t braking surfaces, especially in the wet. In this case discs are the solution for better braking. Have I already said that? Very Happy


So where is the evidence of a long list of bike braking crashes in the wet requiring a problem to be solved ? is there are any evidence that bike crash rates increase in the wet ?

They doesnt exist because there is no actual problem - just a desire to sell more stuff by the bike companies.

Have I already said that? Very Happy
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrahamO wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Back to road bikes though - carbon rims make sh!t braking surfaces, especially in the wet. In this case discs are the solution for better braking. Have I already said that? Very Happy


So where is the evidence of a long list of bike braking crashes in the wet requiring a problem to be solved ? is there are any evidence that bike crash rates increase in the wet ?

They doesnt exist because there is no actual problem - just a desire to sell more stuff by the bike companies.

Have I already said that? Very Happy


Just try braking on carbon rims in the wet, on a technical descent; then let me know your opinion.

In my experience, which is more valid to me than your opinion (assuming you've not raced carbon rims in any conditions)... if you want to stay upright, you'll lose a lot of time on carbon rims. Pretty sure I've said that lots of times, but you don't acknowledge it, you just keep asking for data.

More & more pros are using disc brakes in the peloton now, and that's with the additional hassle of wheel changes, particularly if it's thru-axle. So there are definitely World Tour riders that prefer them too. The fact that teams seem to have riders on both systems, suggests it's down to rider choice.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sylvain Chavanel was riding a TT bike (Wilier) with disc brakes at the weekend. Deep rims though, as I think disc wheels with braking rotors are pretty rare, Zipp are the only ones I've seen.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Just try braking on carbon rims in the wet, on a technical descent; then let me know your opinion.

He might not be around to do that...
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