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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
Lots of bike commuting for me too, but going to try to not let it compromise my winter turbo sessions.


Yeah, my Zwift subscription is looking like very bad VfM at the moment. I'll probably replace my outdoor Sunday morning rides with Zwift when the weather gets worse, as I will have had enough of it during the week.
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was aiming for Paris-Brest-Paris as my main event for next year, along with the required qualifiers, but I cannot now do PBP.

Iím still planning on riding the qualifiers but Iím thinking of going long tri again. Thinking of HIM with RNF instead of Forestman, then either Outlaw or maybe IMSwitzerland if I can persuade Mrs Wheezy. Anyway, all this rambling is a roundabout way of saying that I will be doing more swimming and running as well as cycling. Just getting my body used to consistent SBR.
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PCP




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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To start getting the miles in my legs for Mallorca 312 next year Iím planning on riding with my mate on the first weekend of November from Manchester to Anglesey, stay in my friends caravan then ride home the next day.

Around 140 miles each way. My previous longest ride is 120 miles with a short run off. Day 2 will be interesting Shocked
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:

As for the eX it's all about going slow for me and keeping those red-line, match-burning moments to an absolute miniming. HR as low as possible at all times. I don't compete, but complete, as you may have guessed. Eat your head off and the body can function for ridiculous amounts of time. But you only have so many matches to burn before the legs simply go dead.


I saw that first hand on Saturday, all those who went out hard and burned their matches, stopped pretty much dead at almost the same time, I think that their pace dropped by 30-50% and they never recovered. I think the trick is to see how fast you can go without burning any matches
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
To start getting the miles in my legs for Mallorca 312 next year Iím planning on riding with my mate on the first weekend of November from Manchester to Anglesey, stay in my friends caravan then ride home the next day.

Around 140 miles each way. My previous longest ride is 120 miles with a short run off. Day 2 will be interesting Shocked


I think you'd be surprised how manageable the 312 will be if you stay consistently fit. I entered a 405km Audax thinking it would be a massive challenge, and despite doing a longest ride of 107km in the preceding months, I was fine! It was the longest ride I'd ever done by a long way (180km furthest previously).

You just need to make sure you fuel properly and not start too fast. Having company made a huge difference for me; even though it was just one other guy for most of it.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Chrace wrote:

As for the eX it's all about going slow for me and keeping those red-line, match-burning moments to an absolute miniming. HR as low as possible at all times. I don't compete, but complete, as you may have guessed. Eat your head off and the body can function for ridiculous amounts of time. But you only have so many matches to burn before the legs simply go dead.


I saw that first hand on Saturday, all those who went out hard and burned their matches, stopped pretty much dead at almost the same time, I think that their pace dropped by 30-50% and they never recovered. I think the trick is to see how fast you can go without burning any matches

Someone can come on and use correct terminology, but when muscles go in to the red they will use energy reserves stored locally close to the muscle groups rather than what is supplied through the blood. This is a depletable resource which takes 24-48 hours to replenish.
Energy through blood, by eating your head off and processing it, is a near infinite resource in comparison. But it is not enough to power through those Pmax moments.
Matches are the amount of times, or lapsed time, you can use local energy reserves. But for day races without recovery, when it's gone it's gone.
Some times it comes out as power dropping off massively, some times wobbly legs, and on occasion it's a bonk. But end result is the same, you're out.
You can train to have more of these matches to burn. I had 4-5 when I started, 8-9 when I train normally for hills, but I expect/hope to get 10-12 for eX. It'll mean a lot of top end power HIIT sessions on the turbo over the winter.
I have no idea if the above is physiologically correct but it's my interpretation of the basic concepts and how I train to improve and overcome. Works for me.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:
You can train to have more of these matches to burn. I had 4-5 when I started, 8-9 when I train normally for hills, but I expect/hope to get 10-12 for eX.


Very precise, have you been chatting to Tin Pot again? Laughing Can you define what 1 match equals.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this just W prime, or W' ?

Not that I have tried this, but I'm pretty sure I've read using Xert over a period of time can determine how much of this you have, and then you can have a connect iq data field that tells you how much anaerobic reserve you have left at a given point in a ride.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Chrace wrote:
You can train to have more of these matches to burn. I had 4-5 when I started, 8-9 when I train normally for hills, but I expect/hope to get 10-12 for eX.


Very precise, have you been chatting to Tin Pot again? Laughing Can you define what 1 match equals.

For me, breaching the ~300w limit. After that things turn red for me and unsustainable for any prolonged period of time. I can climb at 300w without going red but above and that burning feeling creeps in. It's obviously personal but I do think you can pin that one down "scientifically" without Tin Pot logic. Wink

That means roughly 25% incline (for me) unless I can weave the hell out of it.

eX will have 10 of them (Struggle x2, Wrynose East/Hardknott East/Hardknott West/Wrynose West x2). Kirkstone pass and Blea tarn (both ways) will hopefully drop under that limit, and I might be able to keep Wrynose West under as well.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I get it. But say you have 20 min of W-Prime matches available. That could be one really big match, or 20 small ones Wink

Many of the arguments around this are more about being able to increase your ability to recover on the go, through a higher Anaerobic threshold aka higher FTP. In reality, I think this is the same discussion as FTP improvement, they're just packaging it in another way to keep making money off 'new' ideas.

Interesting that Stenard says 'there's an App for that'; and that's where the value is added - being able to monitor the expenditure, using (yet another!) metric. Historically, me and many others have used NP as the 'cost' of our efforts, on the bike at least. Is the Connect IQ function only for the bike, or could you use HR instead and use it across the 3 disciplines? (slight compromise I know, but it was good enough before PMs became common).
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Interesting that Stenard says 'there's an App for that'; and that's where the value is added - being able to monitor the expenditure, using (yet another!) metric. Historically, me and many others have used NP as the 'cost' of our efforts, on the bike at least. Is the Connect IQ function only for the bike, or could you use HR instead and use it across the 3 disciplines? (slight compromise I know, but it was good enough before PMs became common).


DCR has given a fairly thorough run down which is where I had read about it: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/03/xert-training-platform-in-depth-review.html

As I say, I've never used it myself. It's all power based. Basically MPA would appear to be their equivalent to W', loosely. When MPA = your current power output, you are at the point of having nothing left in reserve. I would guess that the time to exhaustion (TTE) fields you can set up would be useful in a hilly race, so taking Chrace's numbers, he could set one up for 300W and it would reinforce his belief that he has a lot in reserve at that power level and can operate there for some time. However, if he had a period over that, MPA would fall more quickly, and TTE @300W would also fall quickly. If you know you have c20mins of climbing left, and your 300W TTE is only showing 10mins, you know that you better back off quickly.

Ultimately it is a bit more of a cyclist specific platform, and some of these things are likely more applicable in road race scenarios ... you can imagine Chris Froome using stuff like this and that's why he's glued to his bike computer all the time ... but I can see an application in hilly triathlons.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny that, and I can kind of see all sides from personal experience of how I've ridden the X/half-X events the last few years.

The idea of "20 mins of climbing" makes sense but that's just not how it works for me. I count matches.

The recovery time between "oversize" efforts is certainly a factor though, e.g. climbing Wrynose followed by Hardknott. Those 5 mins at the bottom of the valley is nothing.

But I can't ride at 300w all day long either so solely counting matches doesn't cut it either.

From personally experiencing it it has to be a mix of all of the above. Matches are definitely for those 33% hits, burn like hell. Recovery plays a factor for how often you can hit those, e.g. I can do Honister and Hardknott "fine", but adding in Wrynose hurts like f*ck even if it's smaller. And on top of it, fatigue when I do 90 miles before hitting Rosedale Chimney on my local hurt-run makes it a toughie far beyond what it should be.

To me it's a sliding scale, possibly starting around FTP. Generally going 60-70% and you can go for a very(!) long time, 80-100% FTP starts tearing in to the limited resources, 125% FTP and it's into burst territory and counting resources fast, and at 200% we're talking 30-60 seconds before it's recovery time or stop.

Personal experience - no idea how that relates to scientific research or apps. Smile
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TriSam




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My off season plan is to get this thread back on topic, could take a few months Wink

I can't wait to get stuck in with some muddy XC racing and trail running
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
My off season plan is to get this thread back on topic, could take a few months Wink

I can't wait to get stuck in with some muddy XC racing and trail running


My CRC cart is full of XC and CX parts. Just keeping things off track
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
My off season plan is to get this thread back on topic, could take a few months Wink

I can't wait to get stuck in with some muddy XC racing and trail running

👍
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