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Brexit in action?! Question re French Tris and licensing
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: Brexit in action?! Question re French Tris and licensing Reply with quote

[quote="stenard"]
tuckandgo wrote:

To stay on topic.
It is much bigger than a UK issue. And hence the "tongue in cheek" comment in relation to my thread title.


It's not really a big issue - just a first world problem financial pain in the arse.

I would ask if you are sure that any national licence was appropriate in the past but I am sure you have checked.

Things change, rules change. C'est la vie.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Brexit in action?! Question re French Tris and licensing Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
stenard wrote:

To stay on topic.
It is much bigger than a UK issue. And hence the "tongue in cheek" comment in relation to my thread title.


It's not really a big issue - just a first world problem financial pain in the arse.

I would ask if you are sure that any national licence was appropriate in the past but I am sure you have checked.

Things change, rules change. C'est la vie.

On the first bit, yes. From this year's Vichy race guide for example:

When you come to ATHLETE Registration, please bring the following :
> FFTRI Licence and a Photo ID
> International triathlon licence from an affiliated ITU member Federation and a Photo ID
> Non FFTRI Members or non ITU member Federation members: You will be required to purchase a 1-day licence for 52. You will need to provide a medical certificate, indicating you are physically cleared to compete in a long distance triathlon. This certificate must have been issued within one year from the date of the race. You are also required to bring a Photo ID.


You're right it's not like the world is ending. It's 45. In the grand scheme of the cost of a race, in particular an Ironman one, it's not going to break the bank. But it's more the principle. The previous approach was what I understood was based on a reciprocal agreement at an ITU level. If that's the case, something has then changed. Hence originally asking if anyone here with BTF connections knows more about why this has changed at a NGB level.
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Brexit in action?! Question re French Tris and licensing Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
tuckandgo wrote:
stenard wrote:

To stay on topic.
It is much bigger than a UK issue. And hence the "tongue in cheek" comment in relation to my thread title.


It's not really a big issue - just a first world problem financial pain in the arse.

I would ask if you are sure that any national licence was appropriate in the past but I am sure you have checked.

Things change, rules change. C'est la vie.

On the first bit, yes. From this year's Vichy race guide for example:

When you come to ATHLETE Registration, please bring the following :
> FFTRI Licence and a Photo ID
> International triathlon licence from an affiliated ITU member Federation and a Photo ID
> Non FFTRI Members or non ITU member Federation members: You will be required to purchase a 1-day licence for 52. You will need to provide a medical certificate, indicating you are physically cleared to compete in a long distance triathlon. This certificate must have been issued within one year from the date of the race. You are also required to bring a Photo ID.


You're right it's not like the world is ending. It's 45. In the grand scheme of the cost of a race, in particular an Ironman one, it's not going to break the bank. But it's more the principle. The previous approach was what I understood was based on a reciprocal agreement at an ITU level. If that's the case, something has then changed. Hence originally asking if anyone here with BTF connections knows more about why this has changed at a NGB level.


Hi, this is kind of what I was getting at - maybe the are just listing affiliated federations now - as there was a previous assumption it included all but didn't.

With Britain being the obvious exception due to Brexit
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jayski wrote:
awildt wrote:
It's an insurance thing in France. Every single sporting event and every single sports licence in France requires a medical certificate - and don't forget the certificate has to say "in competition" if you are doing a race.

Given that France has a huge abundance of local races at a fraction of the cost of Ironman, 45Euros is not a lot of money. But if you insist on an Ironman then, well, that's your choice.

A normal annual licence in France is close to 150Euros for the year. But you don't pay for every training session with the club and you get great local events at reasonable entry fee. Why do you think the UK is now almost all commercially organised events with over inflated entry fees - because the federation does NOTHING for grassroots in the sport and only cares about lottery funded elites that can be televised.

Sorry, for the rant but I really miss the family orientated, but high level, competition in France. With a focus on getting everyone involved.

Be grateful you're not in the divisional racing in France - that required full ECGs etc, every 2 years.


Totally agree. It is about time the BTF were held to account. Their funding will fall off a cliff when both Brownlees officially leave ITU racing and our Olympic medal prospects disappear.


BTF held to account for what, exactly?
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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
stenard wrote:
What's wrong with a British, Irish, Dutch, Danish, American, Canadian, and so on, license.


It's been covered on here before that BTF insurance is wholly inadequate if you end up in hospital as a result of a racing incident, maybe the same is true for these other countries?

What do you mean? For medical insurance purposes? I struggle to believe that any triathlon NGB membership would cover an individual for personal medical expenses anywhere in the world. I'm prepared to be proven wrong on this, but that's what travel insurance is for.

I'm only guessing, but maybe France, Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Portugal have a better reciprocal medical arrangement with France which means their nationals would be covered in the event of an accident (nothing to do with triathlon federations). The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.

Really? If so, then fair enough but that surprises me.
Any NGB membership I have ever had in any sport has only ever had a public liability aspect to the cover. Personal liability for things like medical bills resides with the individual, and I can't see any reason why a Triathlon NGB takes it upon themselves to enforce that level of protection on an individual. No different from a general holiday maker taking the gamble of not getting bog standard travel insurance in case they have a heart attack whilst in the USA.

Maybe I'm missing something about how the whole French system works.

EDIT - unless your whole post is caveated by the "I'm only guessing" opening part, in which case, it would surprise me if the bold bit was true.
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awildt




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So to save yourself 45Euros - because that's the only argument I can see you have here. When you're happy to pay 500Euros to satisfy yourself and get a medal and t-shirt, follow this process:
While you're still in the EU - get an EHIC card and go to France for the day. Make sure you've booked a doctor's appointment, go to the doctor, get your medical certificate signed. Pay the doctor 25Euros for your visit and there you are. You have a valid medical certificate which you can use for a year. Then claim the 25Euros back from EHIC. Because apparently Brits can't handle paying for medical things even if it is to do privileged (personal gain) activities such as triathlons.

Buzz_ is exactly correct. The other European countries listed have exactly the same process as France. I know this as I managed a French tri team with foreign athletes. The most difficult person to get a licence for was our British triathlete.

My point about paying is that as noted above you pay for a lot of things in France but then you get subsidies on other things. So you pay a lot for a licence and your annual doctor's appointment, but then you don't pay a lot for race entries (or day licences).

Why, when we don't pay for doctor's appointments, or a lot for our licences, should the French Federation subsidise our entries?

Yes, it might be a money making ploy, and it may be keeping doctor's happy but when the money goes back to grassroots and kids activities (I assure you it does), and doctor's are correctly remunerated for the job they do, then that to me is a better financial system than BTF that only benefits a few elites and not many others.
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SGreg




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.

Really? If so, then fair enough but that surprises me.
Any NGB membership I have ever had in any sport has only ever had a public liability aspect to the cover.



Yeah but I imagine the memberships were not 45euros a DAY! BTF is 5 a day, so not surprising the cover is limited?


I don't know obviously but the cost is pretty high so maybe so is the cover?
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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.

Really? If so, then fair enough but that surprises me.

I thought this came up in the thread about travel insurance and Brit Tri cover, I would have to go back and search to be sure. But I recall links to horror stories of people presented with big bills for broken bones, having originally been told it was all covered by IM. When they realised they were not racing on a 1 day licence IM walked away and Brit Tri (basically E111) took over.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awildt wrote:
So to save yourself 45Euros - because that's the only argument I can see you have here. When you're happy to pay 500Euros to satisfy yourself and get a medal and t-shirt, follow this process:
While you're still in the EU - get an EHIC card and go to France for the day. Make sure you've booked a doctor's appointment, go to the doctor, get your medical certificate signed. Pay the doctor 25Euros for your visit and there you are. You have a valid medical certificate which you can use for a year. Then claim the 25Euros back from EHIC. Because apparently Brits can't handle paying for medical things even if it is to do privileged (personal gain) activities such as triathlons.

You seem to be taking this personally. My original question was why the change. Ironman France have no idea. I understood this change to go against a reciprocal agreement at an ITU level that applied globally. The fact I am a British tri member is broadly irrelevant. I could be American, Canadian, Australian, Brazilian, etc. I was asking if there was any insight on that understanding and what had changed there to allow this FFTri change.

To be clear though, your sarcastic suggestion above wouldnt work. Firstly, getting the medical certificate that way wouldnt save you 45, as you need a medical certificate AND to pay 45. Plus, you wouldnt get the hypothetical 25 back via EHIC as France has a de minimus excess type arrangement, and you can't claim back all of what you pay.

As to "Brits not be able to handle paying for privileged things", I think you're just getting off track. If the French social security system requires a French person to have obtained a medical certificate to do things, so that if they then get ill by doing that said thing they are appropriately covered personally, fine. But seeing as a tourist cannot burden the state in any way and would just be charged for the medical costs incurred (whether those medical costs arise from just a recreational visit, or by engaging in an activity), it matters not a jot. The only possible rationale is it potentially eliminates any litigation liability from the organiser. But participants already have to sign a full waiver of liability to the organiser anyway, and even if it did do what it's maybe intended to do, it then puts that liability on the doctor who "signed you off" in the first place. And that is why most UK doctors refuse to do it, unless you pay them a fortune.

As iwaters said on page 1, for him it would potentially cost 200 to obtain one officially. So 200 + 45 in added costs to do a 70.3 in France. Or one of your local smaller races you've mentioned. That's more than the entry fee. The only other option, which most people I know go down for Paris marathon, is to forge the medical certificate. In which case we come back to the question of what's the point.
Buzz_ wrote:
stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.

Really? If so, then fair enough but that surprises me.

I thought this came up in the thread about travel insurance and Brit Tri cover, I would have to go back and search to be sure. But I recall links to horror stories of people presented with big bills for broken bones, having originally been told it was all covered by IM. When they realised they were not racing on a 1 day licence IM walked away and Brit Tri (basically E111) took over.

That would be their own fault. I have never raced abroad assuming I have any kind of cover for medical bills. The exact same as I don't travel abroad recreationally and assume that for simple accidents either.
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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.

Really? If so, then fair enough but that surprises me.

I thought this came up in the thread about travel insurance and Brit Tri cover, I would have to go back and search to be sure. But I recall links to horror stories of people presented with big bills for broken bones, having originally been told it was all covered by IM. When they realised they were not racing on a 1 day licence IM walked away and Brit Tri (basically E111) took over.

That would be their own fault. I have never raced abroad assuming I have any kind of cover for medical bills. The exact same as I don't travel abroad recreationally and assume that for simple accidents either.

Not arguing fault or blame, simply that a 1 day licence gives you medical cover whereas the BT licence doesn't and that might explain why the French are insisting the British buy a 1 day licence. Found the link in the Lanzerote thread:
https://midsussextriclub.com/race-reports/2014/9/27/a-cautionary-tale-from-ironman-lanzarote.aspx
"This was later confirmed by e-mail that had I purchased a 'Day Licence' the Race Organisers' Insurance would be responsible but as I had a licence from my own Federation that the Federation's insurance should cover me. The hospital I was taken to was a private hospital and would not accept the E111 card."
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awildt




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
awildt wrote:
So to save yourself 45Euros - because that's the only argument I can see you have here. When you're happy to pay 500Euros to satisfy yourself and get a medal and t-shirt, follow this process:
While you're still in the EU - get an EHIC card and go to France for the day. Make sure you've booked a doctor's appointment, go to the doctor, get your medical certificate signed. Pay the doctor 25Euros for your visit and there you are. You have a valid medical certificate which you can use for a year. Then claim the 25Euros back from EHIC. Because apparently Brits can't handle paying for medical things even if it is to do privileged (personal gain) activities such as triathlons.

You seem to be taking this personally. My original question was why the change. Ironman France have no idea. I understood this change to go against a reciprocal agreement at an ITU level that applied globally. The fact I am a British tri member is broadly irrelevant. I could be American, Canadian, Australian, Brazilian, etc. I was asking if there was any insight on that understanding and what had changed there to allow this FFTri change.

To be clear though, your sarcastic suggestion above wouldnt work. Firstly, getting the medical certificate that way wouldnt save you 45, as you need a medical certificate AND to pay 45. Plus, you wouldnt get the hypothetical 25 back via EHIC as France has a de minimus excess type arrangement, and you can't claim back all of what you pay.

As to "Brits not be able to handle paying for privileged things", I think you're just getting off track. If the French social security system requires a French person to have obtained a medical certificate to do things, so that if they then get ill by doing that said thing they are appropriately covered personally, fine. But seeing as a tourist cannot burden the state in any way and would just be charged for the medical costs incurred (whether those medical costs arise from just a recreational visit, or by engaging in an activity), it matters not a jot. The only possible rationale is it potentially eliminates any litigation liability from the organiser. But participants already have to sign a full waiver of liability to the organiser anyway, and even if it did do what it's maybe intended to do, it then puts that liability on the doctor who "signed you off" in the first place. And that is why most UK doctors refuse to do it, unless you pay them a fortune.

As iwaters said on page 1, for him it would potentially cost 200 to obtain one officially. So 200 + 45 in added costs to do a 70.3 in France. Or one of your local smaller races you've mentioned. That's more than the entry fee. The only other option, which most people I know go down for Paris marathon, is to forge the medical certificate. In which case we come back to the question of what's the point.
Buzz_ wrote:
stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.

Really? If so, then fair enough but that surprises me.

I thought this came up in the thread about travel insurance and Brit Tri cover, I would have to go back and search to be sure. But I recall links to horror stories of people presented with big bills for broken bones, having originally been told it was all covered by IM. When they realised they were not racing on a 1 day licence IM walked away and Brit Tri (basically E111) took over.

That would be their own fault. I have never raced abroad assuming I have any kind of cover for medical bills. The exact same as I don't travel abroad recreationally and assume that for simple accidents either.


The point is that French love bureaucracy and paperwork.

The new 2019 FFTri regulations have not been issued yet, so there's no way of ratifying your original post. 2018 regulations do not state it. So if no update to these regulations then the OP is irrelevant and the organisers are not complying with FFTri regs.

My point about the doc cert was tongue-in-cheek. 200 for a private docs appointment versus 25euro + travel to France......... Rolling Eyes
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
stenard wrote:
Buzz_ wrote:
The 1 day licence does provide full medical cover, and the organiser does not want to check the small print of your travel insurance to see if you have cover paid for elsewhere.

Really? If so, then fair enough but that surprises me.

I thought this came up in the thread about travel insurance and Brit Tri cover, I would have to go back and search to be sure. But I recall links to horror stories of people presented with big bills for broken bones, having originally been told it was all covered by IM. When they realised they were not racing on a 1 day licence IM walked away and Brit Tri (basically E111) took over.

That would be their own fault. I have never raced abroad assuming I have any kind of cover for medical bills. The exact same as I don't travel abroad recreationally and assume that for simple accidents either.

Not arguing fault or blame, simply that a 1 day licence gives you medical cover whereas the BT licence doesn't and that might explain why the French are insisting the British buy a 1 day licence. Found the link in the Lanzerote thread:
https://midsussextriclub.com/race-reports/2014/9/27/a-cautionary-tale-from-ironman-lanzarote.aspx
"This was later confirmed by e-mail that had I purchased a 'Day Licence' the Race Organisers' Insurance would be responsible but as I had a licence from my own Federation that the Federation's insurance should cover me. The hospital I was taken to was a private hospital and would not accept the E111 card."

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe I'm the outlier in having previously looked through all the clauses associated with EHIC and determined there are way too many exclusions, loopholes, and requirements, that I would never want to rely on it. It somewhat annoys me that the NHS and other official bodies recommend it for travelling in Europe. In my opinion they should actually recommend getting proper travel insurance! Post-brexit I presume it disappears, so in that regard it should be less likely people get caught out. You can't influence whether you get taken to a public or private hospital if you have a serious incident and are unconscious for example.

I have worldwide cover all through the year, including winter sports etc, through my bank account. But I know triathlon isnt covered. So I also take out an annual policy that covers me for overseas triathlon racing as well.
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Buzz_




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe I'm the outlier in having previously looked through all the clauses associated with EHIC and determined there are way too many exclusions, loopholes, and requirements, that I would never want to rely on it. It somewhat annoys me that the NHS and other official bodies recommend it for travelling in Europe. In my opinion they should actually recommend getting proper travel insurance! Post-brexit I presume it disappears, so in that regard it should be less likely people get caught out. You can't influence whether you get taken to a public or private hospital if you have a serious incident and are unconscious for example.

I have worldwide cover all through the year, including winter sports etc, through my bank account. But I know triathlon isnt covered. So I also take out an annual policy that covers me for overseas triathlon racing as well.


I think the take-away from this story is that the BT licence offers little or no cover. While most people would have some level of travel insurance cover, they may think they do not need extra cover for racing as they have a BT licence. The BT licence assumes you are going to be using the NHS, and therefore is next to useless for cover abroad. In that regard, the French are protecting themselves from loads of Brits complaining they hadn't read the small print.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awildt wrote:

My point about the doc cert was tongue-in-cheek. 200 for a private docs appointment versus 25euro + travel to France......... Rolling Eyes

I did get it was tongue in cheek, but if forgery was not an option for me (either practically or ethically), then if it really does only cost 25 to get one privately in France, that would be a legitimate option and way cheaper than going to a GP here. I travel there fairly regularly for work.
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