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Work:Rest ratio?
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AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:01 pm    Post subject: Work:Rest ratio? Reply with quote

I first heard Hywel mention it and have since heard Coach Troy talk about it "...with a work rest ration of 5:1..." (Spinerval 21.0) so there's obviously something in it, but what?

I'm wondering because I noticed one of the treadmills at the gym has an 'interval' button. You can program two speeds and toggle between the two on the button. But I don't really know how to structure an interval session, never having done a run one. Tonight I did 400m on 14.5kph (which is faster than my usual running) and 600m recovery on 10kph (slower than my usual run), eight times through, but that's a work:rest ratio of 2:3, is that any good for running? I want to improve my marathon speed, so sessions are aimed at that. Iím a 50 minute 10km runner.

Any information is appreciated and any reasoning behind the ratios will help me understand.

Thanks.
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JR




Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 800
Location: Poole

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do a similarly structured session for bike and run.

IMH 14.5 is too fast for what our aiming for. Try something like 5 minutes at 13.5kmph which is above your 10k pace and 1 minutes recovery at 10kmph.

How long did you spend on the treadmill?
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AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

40 minute run in all - 8km which, annoyingly, is bang on my regular pace.

Taking things down to smaller chunks, I'd like to crack 20 minutes for 5km before I go racing again in the spring. Current PB is 22:45 run at Wombourne back in the spring. I have never done a structured interval session for running, I tried the 'run fast between a couple of lamp posts" once but I had tight hamstrings at the time and didn't do it again.
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SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The two very opposite sides of work/rest ratios are Anaerobic work on one side, and base endurance on the other.

An example of interval session where you want to keep your rest ration low, 5k test. You want to run 20min? Just do 5X1k. Make sure you hold a pace higher than your target. 3'55 would be all right for me, 3'45 on the last one. And take as less rest as possible. 30 seconds would be ok. That is called : Broken distance intervals. Excellent for pacing. In swimming we do that all the time.

At the other side, you really want to develop pure speed. You hammer 800s, or even 400s really light and fast (at least you try), and you finish hard. This may require the type of work/rest ratio you refered to in your question. Active rest is better i think, during longer period of rest. Keeps muscles warm.

So there is no right no wrong, it all depends on the effect you want to create on your fitness.

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gah




Joined: 07 May 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The varied interval periods can give two completely different sessions (and all options in between)

If you are marathon training you need to be doing long intervals and short recoveries.
Examples are 5x1 mile with 2 min recovery and the classic 10x1k with 1 min recovery. Efforts are not flat out but run at around 10 mile to 1/2 marathon pace.
You will need to build up to this level slowly but that is what the preparation period is for

At the other extreme short interavals 200/300 m with 2 minute recoveries will build top end speed and you only need do 6-8 reps. This is useful coming off marathon training and want to race shorter distances and need to build leg speed fast
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Tri_Jack




Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy - if you're looking for run intervals for marathon training you could take a look at the following marathon training plan from the US RW website:

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-55-0-8257,00.html

It has 3 run sessions per week - long run, tempo run and intervals runs - the only word of caution is to be aware that the sessions are run faster than marathon training is usually done. I'm following the plan just to get some structured run training in before Xmas and have found the plan to be excellent as you can also fit your other tri training around it. There are different intervals each week ranging from 400m up to 1600m. As some others have said 14.5 kph may be too fast but actually if you are 45 min 10K runner you will find that the 1600m intervals end up being at 14.4kph (so takes about 6min 20sec with 400m jog in between which ends up being about 3:1 work:rest ratio).
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Rob O




Joined: 22 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy ... i think gah hit the nail on th head there with the classic 10 * 1km with 1 minute intervals - hard but really good Twisted Evil ... as said build up to this but with your base level fitness having done IMs you should be fine.
I don't think the treadmill interval set-up is very good ... we have it at our gym aswell .... the whole point of intervals is to actually rest (whether stopping completely or just moving slowly to keep the muscles loose)
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BJ




Joined: 08 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Work v rest does all depend on intensity. I did a "Coach Troy" sprint session last night - work/ rest ratio was 1:5 (a sprint session) - but the work was going well into the red zone (anaerobic). If you are going for improving your threshold capability, i.e. triathlon style racing up to olympic distance, then the ratio is reversed.

I did a 30 to 40min set this year running 4mins at target race pace (approx 1k) then 1 min rest, and repeating 6 to 8 times. The work interval was bang in the middle of my threshold zone (sustainable, but painful), the rest was walking or trotting depending on how quickly I felt I was recovering. KNOCKED 1.5 MINS OFF MY 10K TIME IN 4 WEEKS!

Sounds like everyone likes ( Question ) this kind of workout..........
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Apollo_Tim




Joined: 28 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like BJ there, I found actually doing interval sesssions for running very helpful in producing speed - much more so than LSD or tempo runs. I usually did 900m in 3'20 with 1 min rest - so that's about a 3.3:1 work rest ratio. It worked wonders (but of course, is hard and leaves you open to injuries and needs base work beforehand).

Just my 2 cents.
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AndyS




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks people, I'll try again next week and do it the other way around. More effort with less rest. I'm sure I could do the 10 x 1km at pace with 2 mins rest without it pushing me over the edge.

I read that RW articles to, once through the padding there's a good marathon schedule that can easily be worked into an IM build up.
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MTriton




Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy,

I, too, can thoroughly recommend the 10x1km session. I currently do this session once a week and take a 30s break between reps. Pace is at a little slower than 5km pace. It is a tough session but if you can do it consistently (maybe once per week for a block of 6 weeks) you WILL really see enormous gains. Say goodbye to that 50min 10km time!

After a few weeks of that you may want to move on to slightly faster work. Favourites are 8 x 800s at 1500 pace, 6 x 1200s at 3km pace and 4 x 1600s at 5km pace. Recovery on these sessions should be more like 90secs.

These sessions may seem short and fast but they do have relevance to longer distance training. Fast marathoners need to feel comfortable at faster paced short stuff. If you get a lot quicker over 800m your cruising speed at the marathon will come down. Naturally you need to take care of your endurance in different sessions. But focus on the above and you'll get a sub-20min 5km in time.
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SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyS wrote:
I'm sure I could do the 10 x 1km at pace with 2 mins rest without it pushing me over the edge.
This, Andy, is an interval session per se, with roughly 2:1 work/rest ratio. Excellent for overloading the Aerobic system. With 2 minute rest, you can even perform your reps way over LT speed. On overload occurs during each individual rep, that is why we need to rest more.

This gives more speed. Pure speed. By doing that often, you naturally start your distances quicker, feeling lighter. But the next step is to maintain a faster pace for the whole distance.

MTriton wrote:
I, too, can thoroughly recommend the 10x1km session. I currently do this session once a week and take a 30s break between reps.
This is fractionned training, or broken distance, or whatever people call it. This is excellent for pacing, to teach your body to hold a pace = to your life time best, or your yearly objective.

30secs rest, is not enough to recover. So you must take a pace that is not fast enough to create an overload by its own. The overload occurs as a result of not resting enough from 1 rep to the other.

The set suggested by MTriton, may be seen as a 10k Race pace, done at the pace you want to hold during your next competition season, your objective. In that context, even less or little more rest can be taken, but I think 30sec is cool.


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Cobbie




Joined: 02 Aug 2005
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Location: Chester

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't seen this type of set mentioned but Chris Jones covered it on one of the training days I went on a few years ago. Essentially, it is a pyramid that toggles between effort levels. The times at each effort level can be varied depending on what you're training for:
Warm up
2 mins at 70%, 2 mins at 80%, 1 min at 85%
2 mins at 70%, 4 mins at 80%, 1 min at 85%
2 mins at 70%, 6 mins at 80%, 1 min at 85%
then back down.

Not totally disimilar to what's already been covered above. Not including warm-up takes just over 30 mins so shorter than the 10x1km session but the 'recovery' is at a higher effort level. I've done it with 2 mins at 85% which makes it a lot harder as you're overloading your aerobic system that much more.
Ideal for a treadmill session I found as not too long to get bored and you can easily compare sessions.
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LeeD




Joined: 29 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only point I would add is that I feel the 10kph you were doing for the recovery would be too hard for the faster interval sessions. In these you should be pushing past your lactic threshold at the end of each interval, i.e. within 10-15 beats of your max HR. In my experiance straight after this you will either need to plod very slowly or walk briskly to recover before doing the next fast rep.

I use a 6kph speed on the rests of each interval when doing it on a treadmill and even at this speed it still takes 30 secs to a minute before the HR starts to fall.

Do these, along with fast steady paced runs (tempo) and long slow runs and you have the basis of what most distance runners do for training.

In terms of speed of the fast reps, you need to try and progress to at least 15.5 to 16kph if you are going to break 20 mins for a 5K (which is 15kph).
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Apollo_Tim




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cobbie, in that session you have there, are those percentages of max HR? And is there any break between each part?
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