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mark stride




Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 4234
Location: World of Camp Domination

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:53 am    Post subject: Fat burning for beginners Reply with quote

Can anyone help me to clear something up re. HR zones/LSD sessions and their relative fat burning benefits.

As I understand it, training in zone 2 results in the body burning the highest proportion of fat to carbs, compared to Z3 upwards where I believe the balance begins to shift in favour of carbs.

So, a few questions:

1. Will the body choose to burn a higher proportion of fat in Z2 even if it has alot of carbohydrates available? In other words, would I get a greater fat-burning benefit if I minimise my complex carb intake for a day or so before a really good solid long distance Z2 session ... or would the body be ignoring the carbs and maintaining the 80:20 ratio (or whatever) anyway? I don't mean deplete my carb stores, by the way, which would be silly, I just mean avoiding a whacking great bowl of pasta the night before and a big tub of porridge for breakfast

2. Does your body's 'choice' of what proportion of fat to burn in each zone differ as one gets fitter? If so, does this mean that the fitter you get the longer you have to go in Z2 to get the same fat burning benefit as you did when you were starting out?

3. Does the body generate energy in Z2 using the same fat:carb ratio from the very first minute or does the ratio increase (i.e. you start burning more fat as a proportion) the longer your session gets? Putting this into context, if I were to run in Z2 for 1 hour and burn - I don't know - 50g of fat (this isn't the right figure, I am sure) would I burn 150g in 2 hours holding exactly the same pace or 100g?

Any help would be appreciated - because t'internet offers a range of contradictory answers from various unverifiable sources
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Bex2011




Joined: 23 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blimey i've never thought that deep into the whole theory! i've just stuck by the basics of if you run for 20mins onwards in zone2 you break into fat burning zone -never thought past that really! Rolling Eyes

so i'm afriad i have no idea -but will be watchin for the answers!!! Very Happy
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mark stride




Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: World of Camp Domination

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bex wrote:
i've just stuck by the basics of if you run for 20mins onwards in zone2 you break into fat burning zone


Funnily enough, that basic 'fact', which is often trotted out, prompted my thought process in the first place. Some people say fat burning only starts in earnest over 20 minutes, some say 40 minutes, others say you are in 80:20 fat:carb territory as soon as you are in Z2 and for as long as you stay in it.

This isn't just a technical question, it has practical implications for me. If I know that I am burning a high % of fat from the very first minute then a gentle jog around Hyde Park for 45 minutes makes alot of sense ... if it doesn't start kicking in until 40 minutes then I may as well go anaerobic more often than not if 45 minutes is all I have to spare

I want the truth!
You can't handle the truth!!

Very Happy Very Happy
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Dirty Davey




Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how I've always understood it, I might be wrong though. The body will burn pretty much the same amount of cals for a set distance, regardless of the effort level.

The body finds it much slower to metabolise fat than it does carbs so as the effort rises the use of carbs increases to meet the extra demand.

I wouldn't deplete your carb stores as the body will always need a certain amount of carbs to burn fat anyway, 'fat burns in a carbohydrate flame'.

You can train the body to become more efficient at fat burning by running LSD runs.
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MatCowdrey




Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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Location: The moral high ground...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirty Davey wrote:
You can train the body to become more efficient at fat burning by running LSD runs.


You getting ready for Amsterdam next year Davey...? LSD runs...!!!??? Brings a whole new meaning to "tripping up" while running...
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MatCowdrey




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirty Davey wrote:
This is how I've always understood it, I might be wrong though. The body will burn pretty much the same amount of cals for a set distance, regardless of the effort level.


Read an article in Runners World last month that threw this theory out. The difference in burn only varies marginally between efforts, but it does differ.
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AndyS




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always wondered if your fat burning system works at a constant rate but the faster you go the more carbs you use so the fat:carb ratio changes but the actual amount of fat you use stays the same? I dunno.

I read the first chapter of Anita Bean's nutrition book and the only fact I remember is that alcohol is a fuel. Rolling Eyes
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MatCowdrey




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which combined with the LSD would make for a damn good training run...
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JaffaCake




Joined: 28 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyS wrote:
I read the first chapter of Anita Bean's nutrition book and the only fact I remember is that alcohol is a fuel. Rolling Eyes


I'm afraid thats not what she says.
She says it provides empty calories that cant be directly used as a fuel.
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Norwegian Wood




Joined: 24 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you run at 50 % of VO2 max you burn approx 50 % fat and 50 % carbs, if you run at 70 % of VO2 max you burn approx 60 % carb and 40 % fat. The total amount of kcal you burn is greater with greater effort though so the total amount of fat you burn will be higher at 70 % of VO2 max then at 50 %. (And this is not an old wife's tale but something I learnt at my PT course Smile )
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Rob O




Joined: 22 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you start burning straight away .... and keeping in your aerobic zone will burn a higher percentage of fat

in very general terms
Recovery Zone - 60 to 70 % (50% Fat Burn)
Aerobic Zone - 70 to 80 % ( 30 % Fat Burn)
Anaerobic Zone - 80 to 90 % (10 % Fat Burn)
Red Line Zone - 90 to 100 % (0 % Fat Burn)

But the question is are you trying to burn fat or build up your aerobic base. If it is aerobic base do your training in the first 2 zones (ie < 80%).

But if your are just trying to burn fat then there is this scenario:
If you training for half an hour at 60% and consume 300 calories (and burn 50% fat) you will have used 150 calories of fat. If you train at 75% you are more likely to have used say 450 calories (and burn 30% fat) you will have used 135 calories of fat. So still burning the same amount of fat.
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Bex2011




Joined: 23 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Dirty Davey"]
The body finds it much slower to metabolise fat than it does carbs so as the effort rises the use of carbs increases to meet the extra demand.

I wouldn't deplete your carb stores as the body will always need a certain amount of carbs to burn fat anyway, 'fat burns in a carbohydrate flame'.
quote]

There's been a lot on this just lately -i think there was even an article in 220 recently about laying off the carbs in order for your body to turn to its fat stores for fuel instead, making it a better 'fat-burning-machine' which i have been trying to do for ages! (all my life actually Rolling Eyes ) basically training on just water, which can ONLY be done for a certain amount of time! i've been doing it for a while now & have lost almost half a stone, the bit which i'd been tryin to shift for ages!

Sorry Mark -i'm still not helping your questions! Very Happy
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kevlar




Joined: 29 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: fat burning Reply with quote

You will indeed burn a higher (only slightly) percentage of fat in the fat-burning zone, however bear in mind that training in the fat-burning zone for 30 minutes will NOT burn more calories than training at a higher intensity for 30 mins.

Calories out more than calories in = fat loss ! !

I believe that although the zones are factually correct, in reality the harder you work, the more calories you'll burn. Make sure you keep the complex carb and protein intake reasonable to reduce the lean mass loss, and watch the fat drip off you!

theres no excuse for not getting in the box!
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kevlar




Joined: 29 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: fat burning Reply with quote

You will indeed burn a higher (only slightly) percentage of fat in the fat-burning zone, however bear in mind that training in the fat-burning zone for 30 minutes will NOT burn more calories than training at a higher intensity for 30 mins.

Calories out more than calories in = fat loss ! !

I believe that although the zones are factually correct, in reality the harder you work, the more calories you'll burn. Make sure you keep the complex carb and protein intake reasonable to reduce the lean mass loss, and watch the fat drip off you!

theres no excuse for not getting in the box!
Wink
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Dirty Davey




Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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Location: Hope Street

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember that 220 article. It was very interesting but did contradict alot of what I've been told and read in the past.

From what I understand, the body need glycogen to burn fat in the first place. If the body is low on carbs it will turn to the only other fuel that it's able to metabolise directly into glycogen, which is protien, ie your muscles.

There's probabably nothing wrong with training on just water for anything under an hour, but activly reducing your card stores before training can't be good.

Agree with Kevlar. If you run 5 miles, you'll burn up the same amount of calories what ever your speed. So if you run easy for 30 mins, you're going to burn up less calories than if you run hard for 30 mins as you'll have covered less distance. Although the amount of calories burnt as fat is going to be very similar.
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