Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Box vs Base
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Box vs Base Reply with quote

Thereís a difference of opinion on the forum so lets talk about it. With only 195 days, 16 hours and 8 minutes until IM Austria Iím now thinking firmly about what to do with the next 27 weeks. According to the principals of periodisation I should be doing lots of aerobic sessions, zone one and two stuff but Box theory says I should be hammering it, two very different schools of thought.

Itís been said that once you have the endurance and as long as you donít stop training youíll not loose it. That supports the idea of spending more time hammering it. But itís also said that I should be developing a deep aerobic base and doing lots of long slow sessions to build muscular endurance. Why not do a little from column A and a little from column B? Is there anything wrong with doing your long Sunday casual ride (maybe because you enjoy it) and spending the week hammering it? Can you develop both at the same time?

Iím just rambling on now so Iíll hand it over to you. Whatís your opinion? Box vs Base?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hdavies




Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 4001
Location: smashing up the treadmill

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not sure you know what a box is andy?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
ray




Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8476
Location: newcastle under lyme

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i stand by to be corrected but i think the box should realy only be used in races to keep you pumping hard.


training boxes can be used but they have air holes in them Twisted Evil
_________________
bad back and fat...so much for being an Ironman
Can't sleep the clowns will eat me
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hdavies




Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 4001
Location: smashing up the treadmill

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing should be easy, the box makes the training harder. Come race day.... You are used to your new surroundings

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
JMH




Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 1043

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well here is my take on it. IM- I don't think you should even think about doing intervals until about 4 weeks before and then they are more just to give you a bit of sharpness and confidence rather than anything else.

Your aerobic base does take a long ime to develop but as you say it is easy to maintain. You lose your fast twitch muscle fibres quickly but they can be regained quickly i.e a couple of weeks of intervals so whats the point of doing too many now. I tried they train hard all the time way but it doesn't work- were endurance sports are concerned there is no such thing as short cuts. I just trained hard every session and ok it was good for maybe a week but after that the sessions started to become shorter and much less productive. Just because you are doing long sessions they shouldn't be easy- about 65% -75% of max.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pebble 2




Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 1387
Location: Rhondda land

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts too Andy, I've been playing varying sports for 30 years and as such have built up a reasonable base, century rides etc. The thought of going out and just twiddling the peddles for 4 hours does not seem to be productive for me, so in my case when I go out every ride/run is done with several intervals built in, purely unintentional, just hammer hills, sprint between trees etc.
Rather unconstructive I know, but I never take a break, even my holidays include training, skiing, swimming etc, so do I need to be doing LSD base work or not? Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JMH




Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 1043

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well put it this way a rider wins the TDF- he will have a massive base do you think he'll mess around all winter doing intervals. I think not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hdavies




Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 4001
Location: smashing up the treadmill

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do you assume that all interval work is short and sprint orientated ? Doing intervals of 5miles or so with a short recovery is more productive to Base' fitness than riding steady 30 miles

people dont like to train hard, thats the problem, you dont need to max out every session but build in a series of interval work where you are dipping into the anaorobic zone and mix it up with more varied tempo work rather than steady state stuff.

if you can ride a fast 25 then you can manage a slow 50...but if you can do a slow 50, it does not mean that you can ride a fast 25.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
hdavies




Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 4001
Location: smashing up the treadmill

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JMH wrote:
Well put it this way a rider wins the TDF- he will have a massive base do you think he'll mess around all winter doing intervals. I think not.


Who the hell is asking how to train for a 21 day stage race?

If you are racing for 7 hours, of which 1 mile is tough, and you are a sprinter then yes you will do sprint work.

If you are a pro rider paid to train 5 hours a day, then you will do long rides, but they wont be slow.

If you are a triathlete trying to improve your cycling speed over 25, then 50 then 100 miles, you need a very wide range of training methods.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
JMH




Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 1043

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I agree of course you need a wide variety of training methods. Suprised you know this because you imply that you spend all your training time in your "hurt box". Which is obviously not true.

Sure train hard but train hard at the right times and not in the middle of winter when it is almost completely pointless. The harder you train, yes the faster you will adapt but you'll peak faster and then you will start to slow. The resonse to training really hard will be rapid in the first few weeks but it will soon become blunted. Come the time when you need to find race form there will be nowhere to go.

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Conan




Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 2473
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdavies wrote:
JMH wrote:
Well put it this way a rider wins the TDF- he will have a massive base do you think he'll mess around all winter doing intervals. I think not.


Who the hell is asking how to train for a 21 day stage race?

If you are racing for 7 hours, of which 1 mile is tough, and you are a sprinter then yes you will do sprint work.

If you are a pro rider paid to train 5 hours a day, then you will do long rides, but they wont be slow.

If you are a triathlete trying to improve your cycling speed over 25, then 50 then 100 miles, you need a very wide range of training methods.


What JMH is trying to get at is the way they prepare for the tour and then use their base....and not at all assuming to teach about how to train for a stage race!
_________________

Kulia i ko Ikaika
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Conan




Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 2473
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My two cents! Why do people think Ironman is so different to short course in terms of the macro and micro cycles??? I spent years as a age grouper battering myself in training and the only thing that really improved was my ability to go quicker in training. I have even spent time training with single disciplne guys that have always left their best performances on the training rides and runs. The key is to get the best out on race day and for that it is accepted that base work is followed by speed as any top end work actually eats away at your base and aerobic conditioning. Now why should this be any different for Ironman programmes???
_________________

Kulia i ko Ikaika
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JMH




Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 1043

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdavies wrote:
why do you assume that all interval work is short and sprint orientated ? Doing intervals of 5miles or so with a short recovery is more productive to Base' fitness than riding steady 30 miles


As it was AndyS who asked the original question I was trying to answer him not make a statement on all kinds of intervals for different individuals. As Andy's main focus is IM how on earth would riding 5 miles hard help him get round a 112 mile bike leg quicker? Im sure if he rode 30 miles steady and then added 5 miles each week from now until Austria he would be able to ride the IM faster.

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Conan




Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 2473
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JMH wrote:
Yes I agree of course you need a wide variety of training methods. Suprised you know this because you imply that you spend all your training time in your "hurt box". Which is obviously not true.

Sure train hard but train hard at the right times and not in the middle of winter when it is almost completely pointless. The harder you train, yes the faster you will adapt but you'll peak faster and then you will start to slow. The resonse to training really hard will be rapid in the first few weeks but it will soon become blunted. Come the time when you need to find race form there will be nowhere to go.

James


That is the clearest post I think I have ever read re benefits of slow and steady in the winter! Congrats! Airborne
_________________

Kulia i ko Ikaika
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hdavies




Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 4001
Location: smashing up the treadmill

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as i recall it was intervals of 5 miles during a 30 mile ride would be more productive than 30 miles slow.

An IM course puts natural intervals in there anyway with hills and wind, and its better to be trained ready for that in the same way that a roadie needs to be able to sprint mid race to hold wheel.

Its not a question of either or type of training, but using both.

If i was a paid pro, then i would be doing 3-4 hours a day and if i had that sort of time available, then i would only have about 2-3 hard training days a week.

As an athlete with limited time available i have to train as productively as possible and 90 mins on a turbo at 130 heart rate is a complete waste of time compared to a 30 minute time trial or an hour of interval work.

For running, yes you need the miles, for swimming, yes you need the miles for technique. But for cycling, i believe you can ride hard for shorter distances and be able to hold good pace for longer without having to have trained over distance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.