Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
When does your Hard swim work start?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Speedo Swimmer




Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 2146
Location: Deep end

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: When does your Hard swim work start? Reply with quote

Whilst its great to see people concentrating on the drills and stroke work and it is needed when will you start changing your drill to speed stamina training etc ratio?
I ask because this is an area which you must also work on.
If it was a perfect world and we had all the time we wanted we would just get the stroke right and then put in the hard stuff but it aint and we dont. So we do have to bend the rules a little, after all we all do this because we enjoy the competition.

I am also very interested in the way most triathletes train when doing non stroke specfic work as I see very little metreage done using PB times. Of course every one does know there up to date various PB times? Confused

Stroke work yes but does a pretty stroke win the race?

Please dont use drills as a lazy swim.

Just some observations
_________________
www.swim-tech.co.uk (Also in Kenya Smile)
http://www.mikoroshoniprimaryschool.org.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Apollo_Tim




Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 3377
Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I swim hard through-out the year (NB I play polo so it's a bit different for me!) and include drill sessions (maybe one every two weeks) as I need them. This also depends on the volume of my bike/run training - if I am concentrating on that side more I'll do more drill sessions. This is too little IMHO (should be one a week or more) but there's not enough hours in the day...

Once you have a set of PBs and you know the pace you had (for say sets of 100ms and 200ms or whatever), you can figure out your pace from these. Eg if you know that your PB is say 60s for 100m, and you can do 10x100m off 1'30 in 1'15, then when you re-do that set a few months later and get say 1'20, then a good guess for your PB would be 64s (all things being equal regarding training volume, effort etc).

It helps cos when you're training the next year, you can know after certain sessions that you're say, 5s off your 200m pace, so you're maybe 40s off your 1500m PB of that time last year.

Does this make sense? I rarely do PB-targetting (ie swimming race type) swims but I am able to estimate my times based on previous efforts.
_________________
Just breakin' a take

Nice guys come second
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Speedo Swimmer




Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 2146
Location: Deep end

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main reason for the PB's which to work well need to be fairly recent is that you can set different tpes of training off them rather than just swimming for example 10x100m on 2 mins. Now if you can swim 100 in 1 min and you have 50% rest ratio what energy system are you training? but if you swam it in 1.50 and only had 10 secs rest what system is that training?
So you can see two types of training on the same set but which one do you want?
Its also very easy to get tired and do 10x100m with say 30 secs rest when the first 100m took 1.30 and the last took 1.50 what are we working there?
So many questions
_________________
www.swim-tech.co.uk (Also in Kenya Smile)
http://www.mikoroshoniprimaryschool.org.uk/


Last edited by Speedo Swimmer on Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Iain




Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 3238
Location: North Devon

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to work hard on the swim!!!!!!!!

That's stuffed things Rolling Eyes .
_________________
Was it Henry, the mild mannered janitor?
Special new IM Florida Blog - Feel free to pop in and abuse me. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
amandarunning




Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 483
Location: Cloud Nine or Cloud Cuckoo Land

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just trying to improve my stroke so including many more drills than before. I try to do a long steady swim twice a week and then speedwork twice a week and the rest is thinking about technique and working on that so then the drills...actually I find it easier to do technique and drills stuff when I'm tired as it also means I rest a bit more...

Not really sure what I should do and when so it's a bit of a hotch potch and only time will tell if it works!

Amanda
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Speedo Swimmer




Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 2146
Location: Deep end

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amandarunning wrote:
I'm just trying to improve my stroke so including many more drills than before. I try to do a long steady swim twice a week and then speedwork twice a week and the rest is thinking about technique and working on that so then the drills...actually I find it easier to do technique and drills stuff when I'm tired as it also means I rest a bit more...


Good selection. Are your long steady swims as a block or do you break them up?
Nothing wrong with doing drills in the latter part of the session its a good time and will help correct stroke problems when tired.

PS Good to see that your swim instruction is going well Smile
_________________
www.swim-tech.co.uk (Also in Kenya Smile)
http://www.mikoroshoniprimaryschool.org.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
amandarunning




Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 483
Location: Cloud Nine or Cloud Cuckoo Land

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Good selection. Are your long steady swims as a block or do you break them up?
Nothing wrong with doing drills in the latter part of the session its a good time and will help correct stroke problems when tired.

PS Good to see that your swim instruction is going well


I tend to try and make sure one swim a week is at least 1500m steady without a break. So I warm up and then off I go. I like to do a 4k plus swim if possible and that I will break up but probably try to incorporate at least one 1500m section without break. I have started to always incorporate some kick drills as part of each swim. So a 2.2k morning swim might be 300m warm up, 1500m steady, then 400m where I kick for 30m and swim "flat out" for 120m and repeat...then a little cool down.

The instruction is going well although alot to think about after Saturday which has phased me a bit to be honest. There are improvements for sure after lesson 1 and lesson 2 covered alot more and I think the more difficult stuff to change - specifically the catch and pull which I do straight arm and trying to get some bend seems tough for me....I should get the DVD tomorrow though so hopefully that will break things down into chunks I can deal with!

Amanda
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Speedo Swimmer




Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 2146
Location: Deep end

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take care when doing the big swims as a bad stroke will become a better bad stroke if you let it. Try allways to think and feel whats happening to the stroke even when you start to get tired.
Other ways are to break the swim down into 400 or 500 blocks with only a 15 second break for a quick drink sip and re set of your mind, and my own fav: sprint every 4th length...very hard, but if you train the same you stay the same.
_________________
www.swim-tech.co.uk (Also in Kenya Smile)
http://www.mikoroshoniprimaryschool.org.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
amandarunning




Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 483
Location: Cloud Nine or Cloud Cuckoo Land

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks SS. I tend to try and worry less about kms swum and more about how I swim them at the moment - which for an obsessive training log keeper isn't easy Rolling Eyes

I'm also anxious not to revert to my old stroke and try and 100% work on the new stuff but think this next training block before lesson 3 will be crucial and will try not to get too frustrated if things don't happen quickly!

I'm sure the speedwork intervals are making me faster but am also keen not to let my stroke get too ragged for the sake of speed...

I like the idea of a length flat out every 4 or something similar and may well give it a go tomorrow morning. This morning was my first swim post lesson 2 and think I'm getting the high elbow on recovery ok but the bent elbow in the catch/pull bit is tough for me to do somehow...I was chuffed to improve my kick drills (without board) so I can breathe and continue rather than stand up and gasp and then carry on!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tigger




Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 2788
Location: Hampshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had some swimming lessons in September and said that I would focus on my stroke until Christmas. Christmas has been and gone so I am now concentrating on speed, well how long it takes anyway. I now look at the clock when I do things (e.g 8x 50m on 1:00, 4 x 100m on 2m, 2x 200m on 4m, 1x 400m on 8m and then do the same back).

I don't like doing personal best attempts as they tend to hurt. However, I am getting quite a good feel for how hard I have to swim to get a particular time.

Saying that though, I have twice tried to see how far I can go in 30 mins. Both times, I made a deliberate attempt to swim comfortably with bilateral breating (i.e. I was going quite hard but not flat out). The first attempt at 30mins was in October, the second last Sunday. All that practice has paid off as I was 9% faster, which I was chuffed with.

My aim now is to focus on being able to keep that pace for a whole hour and then get 5% faster over the next seven months.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Speedo Swimmer




Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 2146
Location: Deep end

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tigger wrote:
I I now look at the clock when I do things (e.g 8x 50m on 1:00, 4 x 100m on 2m, 2x 200m on 4m, 1x 400m on 8m and then do the same back).

I don't like doing personal best attempts as they tend to hurt. However, I am getting quite a good feel for how hard I have to swim to get a particular time.

Saying that though, I have twice tried to see how far I can go in 30 mins. Both times, I made a deliberate attempt to swim comfortably with bilateral breating (i.e. I was going quite hard but not flat out). The first attempt at 30mins was in October, the second last Sunday. All that practice has paid off as I was 9% faster, which I was chuffed with.

My aim now is to focus on being able to keep that pace for a whole hour and then get 5% faster over the next seven months.


The T30 swim is a standard timed swim and very usefull to see improvements on an endurance swim but I prefer to do them no more than once every 6 to 8 weeks the other long swims are never more than 500m a block but many of them.
PB attempts: you are quite right they do hurt but again are so usefull in having a datum point from which to work with out going into the lazy zone swimming.
On your working for your 100 200 etc swim most coaches will use the 100m as the start point with rest time added (depending on what energy system you are training) then double and add 10% for the distance rise this is a better way than just doubling up from a easy start point again you need a PB time.
_________________
www.swim-tech.co.uk (Also in Kenya Smile)
http://www.mikoroshoniprimaryschool.org.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TIUK_Ian




Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1276
Location: Loughborough

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: When does your Hard swim work start? Reply with quote

Speedo Swimmer wrote:
Whilst its great to see people concentrating on the drills and stroke work and it is needed when will you start changing your drill to speed stamina training etc ratio?
I ask because this is an area which you must also work on.
If it was a perfect world and we had all the time we wanted we would just get the stroke right and then put in the hard stuff but it aint and we dont. So we do have to bend the rules a little, after all we all do this because we enjoy the competition.

I am also very interested in the way most triathletes train when doing non stroke specfic work as I see very little metreage done using PB times. Of course every one does know there up to date various PB times? Confused

Stroke work yes but does a pretty stroke win the race?

Please dont use drills as a lazy swim.

Just some observations


From my point of view the answer is simple: if your swimming technique stinks what would be the point of swimming hard "for stamina". If you are re-tooling your stroke, what would be the effect of abandoning that to work on "building stamina"? If you are in that place now, is this season your last in the sport or are you in it for the long haul? Do you want to be the best triathlete you can be? Choice is yours of course but I'll tell you something I know for sure, you are rough tough super fit (most of you) triathletes and you don't lose that fitness when you walk through the door into the swimming pool. So why do you need to 'train' in the pool? Now of course I'm not at all saying you don't need to swim faster and swim longer and swim harder, but it depends on your ability at that point to control whats going on. Anyway, when you can drill well you can drill fast too.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers
Ian
_________________
Visit www.totalimmersion.co.uk for weekend workshop details and for TI products

SwimShack TI Swim Studio www.swimshack.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Speedo Swimmer




Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 2146
Location: Deep end

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: When does your Hard swim work start? Reply with quote

TIUK_Ian wrote:
Speedo Swimmer wrote:
Whilst its great to see people concentrating on the drills and stroke work and it is needed when will you start changing your drill to speed stamina training etc ratio?
I ask because this is an area which you must also work on.
If it was a perfect world and we had all the time we wanted we would just get the stroke right and then put in the hard stuff but it aint and we dont. So we do have to bend the rules a little, after all we all do this because we enjoy the competition.

I am also very interested in the way most triathletes train when doing non stroke specfic work as I see very little metreage done using PB times. Of course every one does know there up to date various PB times? Confused

Stroke work yes but does a pretty stroke win the race?

Please dont use drills as a lazy swim.

Just some observations


From my point of view the answer is simple: if your swimming technique stinks what would be the point of swimming hard "for stamina". If you are re-tooling your stroke, what would be the effect of abandoning that to work on "building stamina"? If you are in that place now, is this season your last in the sport or are you in it for the long haul? Do you want to be the best triathlete you can be? Choice is yours of course but I'll tell you something I know for sure, you are rough tough super fit (most of you) triathletes and you don't lose that fitness when you walk through the door into the swimming pool. So why do you need to 'train' in the pool? Now of course I'm not at all saying you don't need to swim faster and swim longer and swim harder, but it depends on your ability at that point to control whats going on. Anyway, when you can drill well you can drill fast too.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers
Ian


So what do you think?
For me technique must come first as Ian rightly states I think along with what I have posted.
This is where the triathletes goals now come into place. What do you want out of your Tri swimming? This is where we as coaches Should sit back and listen to you the athlete, we might know more about a subject than you but its your choice and your time, you tell us and we should only advise not tell you what you are going to do.
Why do you need to train in the pool? Fit yes but allways aim for specfics of the sport as well.
Racing like PB's hurt. I ,ve yet to drill at what ever speed to feel the same.
_________________
www.swim-tech.co.uk (Also in Kenya Smile)
http://www.mikoroshoniprimaryschool.org.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul L




Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 4355
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Speedo & TIUK_Ian,

Early last year (my 1st tri season) I used swimming as “training” to get fit.
I swam twice a week before work and ran and cycled at the weekend.
That was it, four sessions a week, so swimming really was for fitness.

Since then, you have both reviewed my technique and it does needs work.
But I have no pool time available to me where I can drill effectively. Sad
(Public swims are a nightmare & my club swims are under coach’s orders)

So I have been forced to compromise on the improvements I can make.
I have worked hard to change / improve my technique by drilling / practise.
But only as part of my club’s session, not in a dedicated technique session.
So I have to accept that this is not being done in a very efficient manner.

The moral of my story is simple, compromises are a fact of my triathlon life.
I am trying to fit my training around a small family and they must come first.
I am not is a position to achieve perfection, but I can still make improvements.

Swim Strong, Paul. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tigger




Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 2788
Location: Hampshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I prefer to do them no more than once every 6 to 8 weeks


Sounds good to me. I left it 3 months and I am not going to rush doing another one.

Quote:
then double and add 10%


Again, sounds good to me. However, I chose to do this set on whole minutes because it is so simple. I don't have to count, I can just look at the clock. If it is on the minute then I go. If I have been in the pool for 16m then I know that I should do a 200m. I will change it though as I found that the break on the 200m and 400m was too long.

Quote:
if your swimming technique stinks


I know I have areas to improve on but I am quite proud of my technique. I have spent quite a long time (since June with the TI DVD and then swimming lessons) practising it.

Quote:
Choice is yours


Completely agree. That is why I do some sessions paying attention to the clock and my stroke and others where I just pay attention to my stroke. At some stage, I need to think about getting quicker. For me, that time is now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.