Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Stroke Timing
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: Stroke Timing Reply with quote

OK, lets make this a fair contest. No biting, scratching.... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

At the moment in swim training I'm thinking about stroke timing but more specifically, where in the full cycle of a stroke does body roll begin and how long do you stay on your side? My understanding is that the body roll serves two purposes, offers less frontal area to the water and engages the larger muscles on the back and chest. At Masters last night they were doing loads of 'fly drills so I had a lane to myself to drill my freestyle. Half way through I remembered this picture:



In the words about the picture from THIS site it says "Thorpe's (far swimmer) and Hackett's (near swimmer) high elbow position are most remarkable. Stroking involves both forearm and hand. Hackett's elbow pops up to the surface." That's the bit I recalled at the pool, 'elbow up to the surface' so I gave it a go and it changed my stroke timing quite a bit.

I need to roll over earlier in the stroke to get my elbow that high and stay on my side for a long time. That makes the roll over to the other side much quicker and I spend almost no time in the flat or neutral position. That's supported by the next frame where we see Hackett rolling over long before his elbow passes his shoulder where it looks like he's initiating the roll from his hips:



Before last night I was rolling over as my arm passed down my body, only really getting fully over as my hand passed my hips then staying rolled as I recovered going flat in the water as my hand entered and beginning to roll as the other hand started to stroke then slowly rolling over as my hand passed down my body. As you can probably tell, that's pretty much a catch-up stroke which is what I've been doing. But last night felt good, very relaxed and my back was sore afterwards meaning I've used those big muscles (not sore in a bad way, sore in a 'are you asking me to do something?' way). It changed my timing so that there's less catch-up but still swimming in the front quadrant. Things just seemed to gel together better and the whole stroke felt as one rather than as several sections coming in one after the other.

Sorry for the length in the build up to the question but is that right? I ask this because scrolling down through that page of clips on Hackett he rolls over much later when stroking on the other arm, only really getting over as his hand passes his hips and swimming a catch-up style stroke! That could well be because he's racing and not concentrating 100% on a symetrical stroke. I wanted to run this by you chaps before I swim endless lengths trying to learn the new stroke timing.

Thanks
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Apollo_Tim




Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 3377
Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff - glad to see you're really thinking about your swimming!

Hackett's elbow position is good but it is very very hard to replicate because he has more shoulder flexibility than you (and me put together); in addition he likely to be able to apply pressure earlier in his stroke in this contorted position due to all the training he does. What I mean is a high elbow is great but too high lead to dimishing returns. Thorpe's elbow position might be more useful than Hackett's because it is more achieveable.

Being able to initiate the roll from your hips would be a great goal to have - it would really bring your swimming on well. It appears that what you were doing in your old stroke was using your arms as levers against which you could roll (my guess only, I would need to see it). So rolling using your body would save you wasting energy rolling using your arms and leave them free for swimming.

If your stroke is easier, more relaxed and faster, then I would view the change as a positive thing.
_________________
Just breakin' a take

Nice guys come second
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Paul L




Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 4355
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Andy,

There is a very similar debate going on in this thread:
http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12216
GB mentioned a whole bunch of muscles I didn't know I had. Rolling Eyes Wink
They are also referring to similar clips of Hackett & Thorpe.

As Apollo_Tim has mentioned, you have to be careful about trying to copy the top swimmers too closely as some of what they do is not within reach of us mere mortals.

TIUK_Ian seems to saying that based on the swimmers he has been working with, that they would find it physically impossible to swim just like this. So that there will naturally be some sort of compromise between what you should be doing and what you can do.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough to answer your question properly. But you may have answered it yourself:
- Your swimming felt good
- You felt relaxed
- You were using big muscle groups
- It seemed to gel together
To be honest, it sounds like it works for you, so stick with it and see how you get on.

Swim Strong, Paul. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul and Tim. I like to check what I'm doing against photos on the net and they don't tend to photo average Joe. Very Happy I did have a look at a few other videos and those chaps (also medal Olympians) swam with a lower elbow. The likelihood is my elbow is still quite low, it just feels high. I’m not sure if it’s faster, haven’t done any timed swims for a while. At least none where I’ve managed to successfully count to 16. Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2251
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy,

In your introduction, you keep refering to a clip of Hackett, and a clip of Thorpe.

Do you know what event they are swimming on this clip?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SolarEnergy wrote:
Do you know what event they are swimming on this clip?


Yeah, it says "The sequence shown is taken from the 800m freestyle final in Fukuoka 2001, which means world record pace."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2251
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Stroke Timing Reply with quote

AndyS wrote:
My understanding is that the body roll serves two purposes, offers less frontal area to the water and engages the larger muscles on the back and chest.
You are probably right. To make a simple analogy, to me, it is like starting a grass trimer. You know those strap you need to pull hard and quick enough so the grass trimer engine accept to start?
Better doing it with a bit of body motion. Same thing when swimming free style.

AndyS wrote:
I need to roll over earlier in the stroke to get my elbow that high and stay on my side for a long time. That makes the roll over to the other side much quicker and I spend almost no time in the flat or neutral position.
hmmm?

AndyS wrote:
Before last night I was rolling over as my arm passed down my body, only really getting fully over as my hand passed my hips then staying rolled as I recovered going flat in the water as my hand entered and beginning to roll as the other hand started to stroke then slowly rolling over as my hand passed down my body.
Frankly, I don't understand what you mean by rolling over.

Do you mean changing side? E.g. With the body being fully on the right side (left shoulder and arm recovering), rolling over means switching from being on the right side, to the left side?


AndyS wrote:
As you can probably tell, that's pretty much a catch-up stroke which is what I've been doing.
Sorry, I lost you there as well. Sorry, that is probably a language barrier.

Do you mean that your hands catch each other in the front? But what else do you mean?

Thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi SE, I often describe things incorrectly and I probably have here. When I say ‘flat or neutral’ in the water I mean that you’re not rotated at all, shoulders parallel with the surface of the water. I noticed when trying to keep my elbows up higher during the stroke I spent almost no time in this position and a lot more time rotated over onto my side.

Yes, when saying ‘rolling over’ I do mean when you change side rolling over from on one side to the other side. When swimming with high elbows I achieved being fully on my left side or fully on my right side much earlier in the stroke. Before I wasn’t fully on my side until my hand was passing my hips, with high elbows I was fully rotated by the time my hand passed my shoulder. Also, when I say fully on my side I don’t think I am, definitely not as far over as seen in the pictures of Hackett. But being over on my side earlier makes the stretching forward of the recovering arm feel much better.

Lastly, I do swim a ‘catch-up’ style stroke, waiting until my recovering arm has caught up with the leading arm before beginning my stroke. That leaves me in the ‘glide’ position for a long time, probably a lot longer than I should. Although I have seen Olympian swimmers do this (I forget his name but he finished in 3rd in Athens, 1500m freestyle (although I could be wrong on that!!!)).

Thanks and apologies for my poor descriptive skills.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2251
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyS wrote:
Hi SE, I often describe things incorrectly and I probably have here. When I say ‘flat or neutral’ in the water I mean that you’re not rotated at all, shoulders parallel with the surface of the water. I noticed when trying to keep my elbows up higher during the stroke I spent almost no time in this position and a lot more time rotated over onto my side.

Yes, when saying ‘rolling over’ I do mean when you change side rolling over from on one side to the other side. When swimming with high elbows I achieved being fully on my left side or fully on my right side much earlier in the stroke. Before I wasn’t fully on my side until my hand was passing my hips, with high elbows I was fully rotated by the time my hand passed my shoulder. Also, when I say fully on my side I don’t think I am, definitely not as far over as seen in the pictures of Hackett. But being over on my side earlier makes the stretching forward of the recovering arm feel much better.

Lastly, I do swim a ‘catch-up’ style stroke, waiting until my recovering arm has caught up with the leading arm before beginning my stroke. That leaves me in the ‘glide’ position for a long time, probably a lot longer than I should. Although I have seen Olympian swimmers do this (I forget his name but he finished in 3rd in Athens, 1500m freestyle (although I could be wrong on that!!!)).

Thanks and apologies for my poor descriptive skills.
Thanks Andy. Your description wasn't bad, it is really a language barrier here.

Can you, for a moment, picture yourself trying to start a reluctant grass trimer, an old one that uses fuel, but that has no fuel anymore in it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Delboy_1




Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1183

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Although I have seen Olympian swimmers do this (I forget his name but he finished in 3rd in Athens, 1500m freestyle


That would be David Davies
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Solar Energy, I can't picture that analogy and how it relates to swimming! I'll upload some video, that'll help...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2251
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll see Andy, that is very simple.

Sure a clip may help, but on that particular aspect, feeling is even better. So if you don't mind, let's discuss feelings.

Back to my grass trimmer. Some old models, use a rope to turn on the engine. When you haven't use the trimmer for the whole winter, they are not ez to start those grass trimers, right? Now, forget totally about swimming.

Picture yourself, first day of the summer where you need to start that damn gt.

You pull once. Ear the engine, it does "ploup..ploup..", then stops
You pull even harder, it goes "ploup..ploup.. ploup..", then stops

Now you swear a bit then you decide to give it, real hard pull.

What happens, is you start using the body twist, body motion, to pull the rope fast, hard and long. You pull, recover, pull, recover, pull harder (more body twist of course), then “prprprproup drdrdrdr floup floup”... Gee, that was almost it! Don’t worry, swimming is easier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back in the pool.

The body motion, split in two distinct phases. Downward, and upward.

Let's start with upward. You are suppose to use that motion to apply more force, exactly like our grass trimer example.

When you wite that before last night, you used to wait until your hand passed the hips, before using the upward motion... draw your own conclusions. Would you wait until the arm action is almost complete, before twisting the body whilst starting the trimmer?

Now, an interesting "still" image. Hackett. Have you noticed that his body is almost flat on the images, whilst he's having this 90deg angle? That is because he has already started pulling the rope with the body twist. He first bend the elbow, catches, then BANG, initiate the upward body motion that will add power to the WHOLE pulling range. He his pulling hard on the rope, for the full pulling path.

The other phase now, the downward motion. At least two things may happen during that phase. That depends if you are a front quadrant swimmer, as opposed to a rotary swimmer (with all shades of gray in between of course).

If you swim catchup front quadrant, during the downward body motion, you basically extend in the front, whilst gradually starting to bend the elbow and catch.

If you swim rotaray free style, you will put your body weight on that downward body motion, put that weight on the catch, that will hapen a bit deeper than fq swimmer.

Gee I got to stop, I am writting too much. But basically that's it.

No, one more thing. The other swimmer on the image, I think it was Thorpe. Did you noticed that his front arm is deeper whilst still being engaged in the downward. In comparaison, Hackett would keep the front arm higher, because he would delay a bit more, the pulling phase. So we can say that Thorpe, use the upward body motion power, in a more restricted pulling path, than Hackett. But in revange, he may be using more downward body motion power on the catch.

This may be explained by the fact that Thorpe, is more a sprinter, compared to Hackett.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2251
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who started reading my post above, but got tired or confused before the end, I am sorry.

Here is the short story about timing.

Two phase in the body rotation. Downward, and upward. Typically, downward will occur during the catch, and upward during the active phase of the pull. You use the upward to generate more power to help you pulling harder, pretty much like you'd use a powerful body twist action, to start a relunctant , gaz fueled, grass trimmer.

Some swimmers, especially sprinters, will even generate power during the downward motion, as they will put their weight on the catch, making it kind of active, or propulsive. That is not really the case of front quadrant swimmers, that will use the downward bm to strech in front, and the upward bm power on the full pulling path.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 9970

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Solar Energy, that pretty much explains what I wanted to know. Swimming with a late rotation (not getting fully onto your side until hand passes your hip) is probably because I've been doing what Apollo_Tim suggests and using my arms as levers to initiate the roll.

Changing my stroke made it all feel much easier which can be a bit alarming, for some reason I have it in my mind that swimming is difficult. But watching the video of Bill Kirby off the Swimsmooth web site I can see that swimming isn't difficult, in fact he makes it look very easy indeed while still knocking out 1:10 per 100m.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2251
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you know what my friend?

That wrong timing that you had, probably explains, at least in part, your difficulty to swim with a pull buoy.

So I know you hate it, but to test your timing, a set such as

20X100 as (50 swim, 50 pull) 15sec rest

may be interesting. I'd prescribe a lot of repeat here, as you are learning something that is subtle, new feelings.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.