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Racing MHR / Lactate Zone Bike vs Run
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Daz




Joined: 15 May 2003
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Location: Hampton, London

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Racing MHR / Lactate Zone Bike vs Run Reply with quote

It's a simple question but it's something I'm not clear with.

I have a lactate threshold of around 163 when running.
Lats night I turbo-trained to Coach Troy and he told me to cycle at 10beats below lactate threshold.
Would that be 10beats below (running LT) 163, or would it be around 15-20beats below, taking into account the difference between running and cycling LTs?
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Last edited by Daz on Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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AndyS




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your bike LT is likely to be lower than your running LT. Some put a round figure of 10 beats lower than your running LT but it all depends how good you are at running/cycling. For me, my run LT is 176 and my bike around 164. You can do a test on the turbo to find out, warm up fully then cycle at the top end of zone 3 for a bit, once your HR has settled creep the effort up and wait until it suddenly gets bloody hard, ie changed from difficult to OMG!. Your breathing will suddenly get heavy and perceived effort jumps a few notches, LT will be just below the OMG! stage. Back off and do the same again to back up the info. You should be able to get a specific HR where the effort level suddenly increases. This will be specific to the turbo due to the extra heat your body is having to cope with as you're not moving, it's likely to be different in the real world.
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SolarEnergy




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two little abstracts on the topic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12740734&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

and

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2607947&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum
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Windmonkey




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another method of testing your sport specific LT is to determine your average HR through a 30 minute time trail.

Before everyone jumps in to hammer me on this, it is a method that I find very useful but others may disagree as to its usefulness. it comes from The Triathletes Training Bible and my training has become much more efficient as a result, but each to their own.

On the turbo, after a warm up, cycle at your maximum sustainable intensity for 30 mins (don't go off too hard). Take your average HR for the last 20 mins of the test and use this figure as your LT

Same thing for the Run (exept the bike bit).
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Daz




Joined: 15 May 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It def wouldnt work for me on the run because I did a marathon last year at an average of 170bpm. Thats at least 5beats over my lactate threshold. If I ran flat out for 30mins I'd be close to 180 Embarassed

I'll try on the bike but I was up to 173 the other day doing 1min hard/1 min rest for 15mins.

Wind_monkey wrote:
Another method of testing your sport specific LT is to determine your average HR through a 30 minute time trail.

Before everyone jumps in to hammer me on this, it is a method that I find very useful but others may disagree as to its usefulness. it comes from The Triathletes Training Bible and my training has become much more efficient as a result, but each to their own.

On the turbo, after a warm up, cycle at your maximum sustainable intensity for 30 mins (don't go off too hard). Take your average HR for the last 20 mins of the test and use this figure as your LT

Same thing for the Run (exept the bike bit).

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SolarEnergy




Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem guys with the Lactate Threshold "concept", is that it is a pretty wide zone per se.

Take Lactate Threshold, defined as being a 1mmol per liter increase over the base line for instance. One can race (bike or/and run) pretty long way at this level. Many of us would be surprised by the high volume done at that level (without even being aware of it). And I am not talking about minutes, I am talking about hours at that (relatively low) level.

Add to this, Lactate Threshold, defined as being a fixed value of 4mmol per liter, which many call OBLA (on set of blood lactate accumulation), or Maxlass, or individual threshold, or Coggan's functional threshold, or anaerobic threshold.

That is a wide concept.

IMO, stating that there is one valid test, for assessing LT, without givin more precision as to wich LT is being tested, is a bit vague.
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Windmonkey




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz wrote:
It def wouldnt work for me on the run because I did a marathon last year at an average of 170bpm. Thats at least 5beats over my lactate threshold. If I ran flat out for 30mins I'd be close to 180 Embarassed

I'll try on the bike but I was up to 173 the other day doing 1min hard/1 min rest for 15mins.

Wind_monkey wrote:
Another method of testing your sport specific LT is to determine your average HR through a 30 minute time trail.

Before everyone jumps in to hammer me on this, it is a method that I find very useful but others may disagree as to its usefulness. it comes from The Triathletes Training Bible and my training has become much more efficient as a result, but each to their own.

On the turbo, after a warm up, cycle at your maximum sustainable intensity for 30 mins (don't go off too hard). Take your average HR for the last 20 mins of the test and use this figure as your LT

Same thing for the Run (exept the bike bit).


Daz, how do you know that your LT is 163 for the run? You say that you did a marathon last year at an average of 170BPM, If this is the case i'd suggest that your LT is a lot higher than 163 and more like the 180 you'd suggest for the 30 min TT.

only my opinion of course.
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mark stride




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SolarEnergy wrote:
The problem guys with the Lactate Threshold "concept", is that it is a pretty wide zone per se.

Take Lactate Threshold, defined as being a 1mmol per liter increase over the base line for instance. One can race (bike or/and run) pretty long way at this level. Many of us would be surprised by the high volume done at that level (without even being aware of it). And I am not talking about minutes, I am talking about hours at that (relatively low) level.

Add to this, Lactate Threshold, defined as being a fixed value of 4mmol per liter, which many call OBLA (on set of blood lactate accumulation), or Maxlass, or individual threshold, or Coggan's functional threshold, or anaerobic threshold.

That is a wide concept.

IMO, stating that there is one valid test, for assessing LT, without givin more precision as to wich LT is being tested, is a bit vague.


Jeez, SolarEnergy, you are a credit to this forum. Counterweighing the likes of me keeps the whole thing on an even keel.

Now, on the subject of LT, etc .... perhaps your comments are why the likes of RedBiker among others consider that good old 'Perceived Effort' is at least as useful. At the very least, LT testing ought to be an adjunct to rather than a replacement for 'PE', which at the end of the day naturally adjusts to the prevailing bodily and environmental conditions. Or am I wrong, again.
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SolarEnergy




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Mark

I learn more than I teach on this forum, including from you Mark, you teach me some of the finest British Humor Smile

I agree with what you wrote Mark. It's better to focus on performance itself, rather than focussing on a mysterious physiological response to it.

That being said, I understand very well the OP's intention in starting this thread. And I too, am very interested to learn more about the Lactate Threshold concept.


Last edited by SolarEnergy on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SolarEnergy




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wind_monkey wrote:


Daz, how do you know that your LT is 163 for the run? You say that you did a marathon last year at an average of 170BPM, If this is the case i'd suggest that your LT is a lot higher than 163 and more like the 180 you'd suggest for the 30 min TT.

only my opinion of course.
That is a very valid point. If HR at LT = 163, then 170 in average (that is a very high average, given that the first half was probably much lower than the final average number) is a figure that looks a bit odd for me too.

Although, we got to keep in mind, that lactate threshold is taken at a fixed level of lactate. 2 mmol/L for DAZ, may be absolutely meaningless. IOW, it is possible that in a lab, his HR reaches 163 at 2 mmol/L. But it is also possible that this value would have no use at all for DAZ, since he'd be able to go on forever with this concentration of La in his blood. In this case, Individual, or functional threshold may suit DAZ better.

And for what it's worth, generally speaking, a marathon (outside the context of an Ironman), is probably done at, a bit over, or a bit below Lactate Threshold (defined as 1 mmol/L over base line), for many people.

I know I am getting technical here, but it is just to underline the fact that LT is a wide concept.
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marktickner




Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: LT Reply with quote

Just so you know... it is actually possible to have a higher threshold heart rate than your running threshold heart rate.
So to say your cycling threshold is lower by approximately 5-15 beats or so is incorrect.
Many companies will test you for threshold (again many variables on the 'types of names' for threshold) but simply the idea is to raise your threshold so that you accumilate less lactate and perform more aerobically at the same effort, or be able to go faster at the point of threshold.
Big subject... too little time to explain... need sleep!

Mark
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ed_m




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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm having a full on lab test on friday.. so hopefully i'll get kosher thresholds to play with. Smile
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Daz




Joined: 15 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I'm too honest to admit I understand what you guys are talkign about. Thanks for the comments but you may as well have typed it in greek Very Happy

I think the title of the thread should have been "Me no understand Lactate Threshold Training Zones"

Anyway, I've trained in the past between 163-173bpm on lactate zone runs. Took it from the 85-90%MHR originally, but realised it was pretty much spot on, by perceived effort and the feeling you get in your legs.

I've been runnign for a number of years but cycling is somethign I'm just coming to terms with. A general indication of my lactate threshold would be very useful. I dont mind it being a few BPM out, as long as I get an idea. So are there any simple tests I can do - a 30m time-trial and take the average - is this close enough?

Maybe I should invest in a proper test - how much do they cost?

Cheers guys
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SolarEnergy




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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz,

Lactate threshold, as you probably knows, refers to a point where blood lactate level starts to raise above normal level. The normal level should be around (~) 1 mmol per liter of blood.

Lactate Threshold (LT) is defined as being the initial non linear increase of blood lactate level, over the base line. For most, LT represent a value of around 2 mmol of lactate, per liter of blood.

What shed some confusion, is that this LT, often called LT1 (because it is the initial increase), occurs at an intensity level much lower than some people would think.

After that initial increase, if you continue raising the intensity (speed for instance), Lactate level keep rising, 'til it gets to a next level. At 4 mmol/L, there is a second LT, often called LT2 (because it occurs after LT1). Experts call that OBLA (stands for Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation).

So far, we have 2 lactate threshold, measured at fixed levels (2 mmol and 4 mmol/L).

Problem with these two LT, is that they don't take into account, the individual true capacity of working with the presence of lactate (because they are at fixed levels). So there is an other one, that is the highest lactate level you can stand, before the lactate curve goes to the roof. It is called the Maxlass (for Maximum Lactate Steady State). Steady state refers to the fact that this is the highest steady state value you can reach, before the curve raise expodential.

People often mix things up, and it is easy to understand why. All that is a bit confusing.

LT1 = long duration, especially for a triathlete. For a well trained runner, a marathon is often done slightly over LT1. That is, if I take blood samples while you run a marathon, I'd probably notice your La level a bit over 2 mmol/L

LT2 = mid duration. A 40k time trial on the bike would probably be done near this level

Maxlass = This is the lactate threshold people are generally refering too, when prescribing a 30min test

That was a little crash course. But LT concept is much more complexe than that, since we now know Lactate isn't even believed to be the cause of fatigue anymore.
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ed_m




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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz wrote:

Maybe I should invest in a proper test - how much do they cost?


pass.. i'm not paying Wink

oh its a running/treadmill test btw not cycling.

you'd have to sweet talk Rory Coleman & pretend you're interested in Marathon of Britain Razz
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