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| Lance raced his career drug-free? |
| For sure, I'd bet money on it! |
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35% |
[ 24 ] |
| Possibly, but not sure. Undecided either way. |
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27% |
[ 19 ] |
| Open your eyes - NO WAY! |
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36% |
[ 25 ] |
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| Total Votes : 68 |
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younggun
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh
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 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert wrote: | | Belief aside, which is subjective, look at the legal process, which is objective. He's not been tested positive and, even if the evidence were equivocal the benefit of the doubt is with the defendant. That's a basic forensic tenet. |
It won't be a test result or evidence when the truth finally comes out, it'll be the people talking. When people get old they tend to like to tell the truth before they go or if the athlete dies young then they tell the truth for the good of others - this is why we know about what happened in cycling in the 50s/60s/70s... So when we say the truth will eventually come out, we don't mean a drugs test or an operation puerto type investigation, we mean by people talking. When time has eroded the self interests away.
For me the real question here is not whether we declare him guilty (clearly we can't do that) but whether we continue to idolise him when the balance of probabilities is pretty firmly in one favour.
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bigjimsty
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 988
Location: 'Old' Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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I believe that's what will happen too, I don't believe they'll ever get anything conclusive from any of the tests he has submitted as it would have happened by now. More than likely when some of the riders he rode / work with retire they will come out with it - especially as they know they would get paid well to spill the beans. As has been proved many times before in sports, money is often the most powerful motivator 
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markie r
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 12909
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: |
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who ever said anything about nike making drugs?
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Cadence Minge
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 8707
Location: The Little Red Dot
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| markie r wrote: | | who ever said anything about nike making drugs? |
Come off it - their 'Just Do It' campaign appearing less than 3 months after Zammo off Grange Hill and that ugly sort that went on to East Enders launched their 'Just Say No' crusade?? Coincidence, I think not.
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Unfathomable multisport potential. Humility and shyness the only limiters
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Morg
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1815
Location: Middle England
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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This thread, I am sure is titled with the woird "Truth" in it.
I am sure that nowhere at any point in the title does it say anything along the lines of ....
"The Speculatation, and accusations about Lance that may or may not be true but they may or may not come out in the fullness of time etc"
I read it again, yeah, it does say truth so after a lot of pages is there gong to be some truth written, or are we going to go on with the endless speculation of he must have mustn't he, even though there's no proof.
Its good to have beliefs and opinions, its also good to have an open mind.
The truth will be from proof, thats how it has to be, get used to it, deal with it, sheesh
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Morg
As you get older three things happen. The first is your memory goes, and I can't remember the other two...
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round2
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Dubai
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Exactly. Innocent until proven guilty, therefore..... Innocent.
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doug
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 15040
Location: Harrow (Doonhamer in exile)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Morg wrote: |
The truth will be from proof, thats how it has to be, get used to it, deal with it, sheesh |
Totally agreed - I doubt there will ever be any rigourous proof one way or another. There will always be some doubt, both doubt that the lab results are indeed genuine (especially since there has been a breach of procedure) and also with so much mud flying around even the innocent will end up looking a bit dirty.
The truth is we will never know what the truth is. The real casualities in this are the sport itself and the integrity of the testing regime. Without rigourous proof there should have been no accustaions made, but certain factions like flying their kites...
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markie r
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 12909
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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the truth and what can be proven might not be the same thing.
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ffs I don't actually live under a bridge in Norway.
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doug
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 15040
Location: Harrow (Doonhamer in exile)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| markie r wrote: | | the truth and what can be proven might not be the same thing. |
True - but without proof how do we know what is true ?
"As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know."
-- Rumsfeld, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing
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younggun
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Morg wrote: | | This thread, I am sure is titled with the woird "Truth" in it. |
Indeed - but the poll was far more speculative:
- For sure, I'd bet money on it!
- Possibly, but not sure. Undecided either way.
- Open your eyes - NO WAY!
| Morg wrote: | I am sure that nowhere at any point in the title does it say anything along the lines of ....
"The Speculatation, and accusations about Lance that may or may not be true but they may or may not come out in the fullness of time etc" |
The double question mark in the title?
The poll questions?
The first line of the first post?: "I still can't fully believe Lance was clean throughout his career, and possibly we will never know?"
Strikes me this thread was all about discussion and speculation?
But I agree, it's getting boring and we're familiar with the arguments on each side... Speak again in 20 years? If we've heard nothing then you win, clean.
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Morg
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1815
Location: Middle England
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But I agree, it's getting boring and we're familiar with the arguments on each side... Speak again in 20 years? If we've heard nothing then you win, clean. |
I accept your proposal
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Morg
As you get older three things happen. The first is your memory goes, and I can't remember the other two...
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younggun
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Morg wrote: | | I accept your proposal |
Cool! I doubt it'll take that long BTW. Normally a generation of athletes is enough time.
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Robert
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 9238
Location: Back from outer space
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| younggun wrote: | | Robert wrote: | | Belief aside, which is subjective, look at the legal process, which is objective. He's not been tested positive and, even if the evidence were equivocal the benefit of the doubt is with the defendant. That's a basic forensic tenet. |
It won't be a test result or evidence when the truth finally comes out, it'll be the people talking. When people get old they tend to like to tell the truth before they go or if the athlete dies young then they tell the truth for the good of others - this is why we know about what happened in cycling in the 50s/60s/70s... So when we say the truth will eventually come out, we don't mean a drugs test or an operation puerto type investigation, we mean by people talking. When time has eroded the self interests away.
For me the real question here is not whether we declare him guilty (clearly we can't do that) but whether we continue to idolise him when the balance of probabilities is pretty firmly in one favour. |
You obviously trust people's word far more than factual evidence.
I don't - people make mistakes, the evidence is what it is
(NB - its interpretation, by people, is also open to mistake).
You say the balance of probabilities is firmly in one favour.... but that's just your view of the balance. Again, this is subjective, open to interpretation, etc. etc.
I don't idolise anyone - that's a sign of the celebrity culture in the UK - but I do respect their efforts until proven otherwise.
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Toyota_Crown
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 15900
Location: Lincoln / Scarborough (Algerino-Land) / Fircombe-on-Sea. sandbagging for daveM
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Lance is innocent. the rotten french authorities in particular just have it in for him. erm, probably cos hes not french! poor bloke must be pig sick of all the mud thrown at him.
jeez, living legend and he gets treated like this 
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Simon G.
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 958
Location: Blackpool
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert wrote: | | younggun wrote: | | Robert wrote: | | Belief aside, which is subjective, look at the legal process, which is objective. He's not been tested positive and, even if the evidence were equivocal the benefit of the doubt is with the defendant. That's a basic forensic tenet. |
It won't be a test result or evidence when the truth finally comes out, it'll be the people talking. When people get old they tend to like to tell the truth before they go or if the athlete dies young then they tell the truth for the good of others - this is why we know about what happened in cycling in the 50s/60s/70s... So when we say the truth will eventually come out, we don't mean a drugs test or an operation puerto type investigation, we mean by people talking. When time has eroded the self interests away.
For me the real question here is not whether we declare him guilty (clearly we can't do that) but whether we continue to idolise him when the balance of probabilities is pretty firmly in one favour. |
You obviously trust people's word far more than factual evidence.
I don't - people make mistakes, the evidence is what it is
(NB - its interpretation, by people, is also open to mistake).
You say the balance of probabilities is firmly in one favour.... but that's just your view of the balance. Again, this is subjective, open to interpretation, etc. etc.
I don't idolise anyone - that's a sign of the celebrity culture in the UK - but I do respect their efforts until proven otherwise. |
Well said 
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