Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Thoughts On Training 'At The Right Level For You', Pt 2.
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
younggun




Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bird wrote:
Hi,

I'm looking at the 10h/wk oly/sprint training, how would I incorporate some bricks into that? Is it just as simple as sticking the shorter runs onto the end of a turbo session?
You could do exactly that yes. Are you just looking to build fitness over the winter or have you got races coming up? I wouldn't personally put high value on bricks unless you have races coming up.
_________________
My blog about giving up the desk job and becoming a full-time coach or sports professional : www.adamyoungblog.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bird




Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks,just wanted to be sure.

No just looking to build the fitness up over winter, first tri is in April, until then just got a few 10k runs planned.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lonestar




Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 3580
Location: Lead Farming Mutherfuker

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

younggun wrote:
Bird wrote:
Hi,

I'm looking at the 10h/wk oly/sprint training, how would I incorporate some bricks into that? Is it just as simple as sticking the shorter runs onto the end of a turbo session?
You could do exactly that yes. Are you just looking to build fitness over the winter or have you got races coming up? I wouldn't personally put high value on bricks unless you have races coming up.

I dont know........I think there would be the added aerobic/endurance benefit of the back to back training. Maybe a quick stretch to get rid of the risk of inuury and stiffness or NOT!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lonestar




Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 3580
Location: Lead Farming Mutherfuker

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think you are at a certain level and want to train say 12 hours a week, would there be anything wrong in following the next step down plan and then having say a 60 min session in all disciplines to do with what you like, say hills/sprint/speed and work on what you think weaknesses are?

additionally as you say this is a sustained training plan, is that to say no gainds wil be made just a maintainence of what was achieved in build/base phases? Im currently in base and missing sessions I do sometimes think its motivation in terms of being bored with L2 runs for example, although the swim is just the times available 1st thing of last thing
_________________
The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
younggun




Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lonestar wrote:
If you think you are at a certain level and want to train say 12 hours a week, would there be anything wrong in following the next step down plan and then having say a 60 min session in all disciplines to do with what you like, say hills/sprint/speed and work on what you think weaknesses are?
You could do that. But I'd take the right hour-plan and change the sessions to your needs. For instance if you want to do bike hills then change the L4 bike session to bike hills.

Also bear in mind that I believe these sessions meet the needs of most athletes wanting to improve. They're designed to train your endurance and your threshold speed which should give you excellent race pace. It's unusual to have an area of your fitness in triathlon that needs work outside of these two, so be wary of mis-diagnosing a weakness.

lonestar wrote:
additionally as you say this is a sustained training plan, is that to say no gainds wil be made just a maintainence of what was achieved in build/base phases?
No, you should improve your fitness doing it. If you aren't then you might look at doing more hours. The main weakness with what I wrote is there's no progression to it. As you gain fitness from the training you need to increase your training load gradually to keep the gains going. But saying that I think it's a pretty good starting point.
_________________
My blog about giving up the desk job and becoming a full-time coach or sports professional : www.adamyoungblog.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lonestar




Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 3580
Location: Lead Farming Mutherfuker

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

younggun wrote:
lonestar wrote:
If you think you are at a certain level and want to train say 12 hours a week, would there be anything wrong in following the next step down plan and then having say a 60 min session in all disciplines to do with what you like, say hills/sprint/speed and work on what you think weaknesses are?
You could do that. But I'd take the right hour-plan and change the sessions to your needs. For instance if you want to do bike hills then change the L4 bike session to bike hills.

Also bear in mind that I believe these sessions meet the needs of most athletes wanting to improve. They're designed to train your endurance and your threshold speed which should give you excellent race pace. It's unusual to have an area of your fitness in triathlon that needs work outside of these two, so be wary of mis-diagnosing a weakness.

lonestar wrote:
additionally as you say this is a sustained training plan, is that to say no gainds wil be made just a maintainence of what was achieved in build/base phases?
No, you should improve your fitness doing it. If you aren't then you might look at doing more hours. The main weakness with what I wrote is there's no progression to it. As you gain fitness from the training you need to increase your training load gradually to keep the gains going. But saying that I think it's a pretty good starting point.


thank you YG

PS currently working on aerobic endurance only. Do you 'believe' in that type of periodised training or do you work with the above plan type varying the pace/tempo/duration etc
_________________
The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
younggun




Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lonestar wrote:
PS currently working on aerobic endurance only. Do you 'believe' in that type of periodised training or do you work with the above plan type varying the pace/tempo/duration etc
I certainly believe in periodisation. Do I believe in an extended low-intensity ("base") phase? For some athletes yes, particularly those weaker in that discipline. Also for those with some weight to lose.

But for many athletes my belief is that they do base work for too long and could do with a bit more intensity in the mix. IMO 8 weeks is a lot of anything, some good athletes do 20 weeks of base and it strikes me that's too much.

The classic thing which I see all the time is athletes go from one extreme to the other. They do all base, then think, right, all hard. The trick is to get in the middle, include a good mix of intensities in your training to improve the quickest.
_________________
My blog about giving up the desk job and becoming a full-time coach or sports professional : www.adamyoungblog.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
younggun




Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lonestar wrote:
PS currently working on aerobic endurance only. Do you 'believe' in that type of periodised training or do you work with the above plan type varying the pace/tempo/duration etc
I certainly believe in periodisation. Do I believe in an extended low-intensity ("base") phase? For some athletes yes, particularly those weaker in that discipline. Also for those with some weight to lose.

But for many athletes my belief is that they do base work for too long and could do with a bit more intensity in the mix. IMO 8 weeks is a lot of anything, some good athletes do 20 weeks of base and it strikes me that's too much.

The classic thing which I see all the time is athletes go from one extreme to the other. They do all base, then think, right, all hard. The trick is to get in the middle ground, include a good mix of intensities in your training to improve the quickest.
_________________
My blog about giving up the desk job and becoming a full-time coach or sports professional : www.adamyoungblog.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
younggun




Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lonestar wrote:
PS currently working on aerobic endurance only. Do you 'believe' in that type of periodised training or do you work with the above plan type varying the pace/tempo/duration etc
I certainly believe in periodisation. Do I believe in an extended low-intensity ("base") phase? For some athletes yes, particularly those weaker in that discipline. Also for those with some weight to lose.

But for many athletes my belief is that they do base work for too long and could do with a bit more intensity in the mix. IMO 8 weeks is a lot of anything, some good athletes do 20 weeks of base and it strikes me that's too much.

The classic thing which I see all the time is athletes go from one extreme to the other. They do all base, then think, right, all hard. The trick is to get in the middle ground, include a good mix of intensities in your training to improve the quickest.
_________________
My blog about giving up the desk job and becoming a full-time coach or sports professional : www.adamyoungblog.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tweenster




Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 3734
Location: Gosport

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam

You're either blatantly padding or consider the message is an important one that perhaps Lonestar won't get on the first read through??? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
_________________
Maybe a Sprint or 2 in 2012. Whatever, it will be on a road bike.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
younggun




Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tweenster wrote:
Adam

You're either blatantly padding or consider the message is an important one that perhaps Lonestar won't get on the first read through??? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Oops, #@?#, sorry. I'm on a really flakey wireless connection out here in Perth and kept having to re-try posting because it disconnected... Obviously it did post each time. Oops.
_________________
My blog about giving up the desk job and becoming a full-time coach or sports professional : www.adamyoungblog.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1457
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Younggun,

Firstly, thank's very much for this thread. As an IM wannabe it is very useful and I intend to broadly follow the 9 hr / 12hr schedules you have put together. My question follows on from some of the previous posts, in that my biggest limiter is my muscular endurance on the bike (from what I understand of ME Embarassed ) You have in there a shorter, higher intensity session with more work at Z4. What would be the benefit to me of doing this session? I'm kind of thinking I'd be better off doing another session for 90 min or so (or at least working up to 90 mins over a few months) and doing longer TT type efforts, say 5 x 15 minutes at Z3. What do you think about this?

Cheers, Wheezy
_________________
If it was easy, everyone would do it.
My Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
younggun




Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 4443
Location: Purf, Orstrayleeahh

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
Younggun,

Firstly, thank's very much for this thread. As an IM wannabe it is very useful and I intend to broadly follow the 9 hr / 12hr schedules you have put together. My question follows on from some of the previous posts, in that my biggest limiter is my muscular endurance on the bike (from what I understand of ME Embarassed ) You have in there a shorter, higher intensity session with more work at Z4. What would be the benefit to me of doing this session? I'm kind of thinking I'd be better off doing another session for 90 min or so (or at least working up to 90 mins over a few months) and doing longer TT type efforts, say 5 x 15 minutes at Z3. What do you think about this?

Cheers, Wheezy
Hi Wheezy, sorry only just noticed your post.

> You have in there a shorter, higher intensity session with more work at Z4. What would be the benefit to me of doing this session?
It's just a little lactate threshold development - you don't need to exceed threshold to do this, you just need to get close to it.

The risk of just riding L2/L3 all the time is that your threshold can drop. The physiology is complex but a lower threshold also means your 'steady' pace (which is ironman pace) also drops. This is the big dilemma with ironman training - you need the endurance but you also need a high threshold to ride quickly.

> I'm kind of thinking I'd be better off doing another session for 90 min or so (or at least working up to 90 mins over a few months) and doing longer TT type efforts, say 5 x 15 minutes at Z3. What do you think about this?
You could, yes. I'm sure you'd be fine with it. My preference would be for 1xL3 1xL4 as I wrote it as I think you'd get more threshold fitness bang for your buck that way, especially if you're short on overall training hours.

As I said earlier in this thread, a weakness of what I've written is that there's no periodisation/progression in the plans. If you're keen on the L3 then why not periodise it? Do it for 6 weeks then add in some L4 for the final 6 weeks up to your taper?

> My question follows on from some of the previous posts, in that my biggest limiter is my muscular endurance on the bike (from what I understand of ME Embarassed )
OK, I'm guessing what you're calling "muscular endurance" is what feels like trashed legs during the race?

What are your symptoms? When do they happen?

The cause of trashing of legs in a long race is a contentious subject. Believe it or not, sports scientists don't understand why it happens for sure. The old-school theory was that you were breaking muscles fibres like when you weight train, but when you take a muscle bioposy in those trashed muscles, all the fibres look fine. It's not lactate accumulation either as that'd be obvious too.

The best guess from SS is that it's a result of stress in the energy systems in your legs, particularly your fat burning systems in the working muscles themselves. (half your energy during an IM comes from burning fat). Fat burning is incredibly complicated and not fully understood, there are multiple stages to it and it's quite likely either a fatigue of the system itself or an accumulation of local fat burning waste products is causing the trashed feeling.

Where does this leave us? If fat burning endurance is relevant to trashing muscles then doing long steady sessions is important for ironman endurance (no #@?# sherlock). But also increasing your threshold would help because it means your fat burning is working at a lower percentage effort for the same speed (hence my L4 session).

Another thing would probably help - doing Ironmans themselves. They seem to have a deep endurance training effect on the body, so you should see an improvement in leg-trashing with each passing race.

From the vocabulary you used, I'm guessing you're familiar with Gordo's writing? One of the best things he ever said was "if you can't run the marathon then you need to ride slower" (I paraphrase). If you have a leg-trashing problem (I did at IM distance) then you really need to swallow your pride and ride more slowly. Because of this effect you may not end up with a slower bike split and I guarantee you'll run a helluva lot better.

Not sure how much that helps, but some background info on why I wrote the sessions as they are. Gordo's approach was always masses of L2/3. This may create enough overload to develop your threshold when you're banging out 30+ hours/week of it. An age grouper doing more moderate hours is probably going to need to do some higher intensity stuff to develop their threshold... I'm sure I've heard Gordo talk along those lines.

Adam
_________________
My blog about giving up the desk job and becoming a full-time coach or sports professional : www.adamyoungblog.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Russ C




Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

younggun wrote:

From the vocabulary you used, I'm guessing you're familiar with Gordo's writing? One of the best things he ever said was "if you can't run the marathon then you need to ride slower" (I paraphrase). If you have a leg-trashing problem (I did at IM distance) then you really need to swallow your pride and ride more slowly. Because of this effect you may not end up with a slower bike split and I guarantee you'll run a helluva lot better.

Not sure how much that helps, but some background info on why I wrote the sessions as they are. Gordo's approach was always masses of L2/3. This may create enough overload to develop your threshold when you're banging out 30+ hours/week of it. An age grouper doing more moderate hours is probably going to need to do some higher intensity stuff to develop their threshold... I'm sure I've heard Gordo talk along those lines.

Adam


Hi Adam,

Met you last week when I had a Video analysis session with Paul.

Gordo often mentions the idea that if you can't run a good marathon split it means you went too hard on the bike. Specifically he's said that he thinks you should be able to run within 10% of your standalone marathon time if you've held back enough on the bike. I've yet to achieve that 10% though recent races make me suspect the issue is more nutritional as my legs don't feel trashed. Once I get past the energy dip I'm running fast again which leads me to believe I need more calories earlier in the race and more consistent calories on the run.

Gordo's approach definitely favours massive amounts of L2/L3. I think the thing a lot of age groupers miss is that to achieve the level he did he took a break from work and trained for a year or two. He has written various pieces on this approach - generally as a means of stepping up from being a good age grouper to podium placing maybe even racing pro. But you're absolutely right he's talking consistent, long hours week in week out without the distractions of work. That's the approach I'm taking right now, but I'm pretty fortunate to be in a situation where I can.

Having trained with him on Epic Camp Italy earlier in the year I think the truth is he's doing intensity in there too. Maybe not as much as on other programs, but there is some there at times. I have to admit much as I'm taking a high volume approach to training I do throw intensity in there at times. Whether it be hill work, short races or getting carried away on group rides, it's still there.

Sorry, that was a long way to agree on a couple of your views of Gordo's training approach. I think you can get returns from it, simply because you're training. I think to get big returns, such as his transition from age group to pro, you've got to be training a lot.

Russ
_________________
Blog - Twitter - Coaching - Training Camp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1457
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Younggun,

Thanks so much for that reply, it's very useful and has clarified a lot for me. Smile

I've only completed 2 HIM and the first one, in particular, my legs were trashed as you put it!! Mad When I have just been run training in the past, I have always found that when I have put some hard intervals into my schedule my ability to cope with bigger mileges has improved and helped to increase my aerobic as well as anaerobic endurance. Since thinking about doing IM I've been consistently doing LSD and this is just making me long and slow so your advice to incorporate some Z4 stuff is very welcome! I also enjoy doing those sessions more! Smile

In the 2 HIM I did my run was way off my times for a stand alone half marathon and I am sure this is down to me overcooking the bike, even though it does not feel like I am initially, therefore it's the bike that I have to work on and those long sunday rides on their own are not going to cut it.

Thanks again,

Wheezy
_________________
If it was easy, everyone would do it.
My Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.