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The sub 3 hour marathon training thread
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Chris G




Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 165
Location: Recovering before the next session

PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top tips Very Happy but I'm interested in this one:

The Anti Coach wrote:

Never try and run for more than 2:30 on your long runs and run them dead slow (you may have to violate this rule once to get a +20 mile run in)


How slow is "dead slow"?? I've always approached LSD as long, steady distance not long, slow distance and will probably be more Z2 than Z1 for these (although I do tend to run them in the hills).

Someone posted this useful link recently: http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm
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Fuzzy Dunlop




Joined: 14 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure I agree that runs should be slow. My long runs for this year (2.57) were slow (8mm) but everything I have read says you should run them 30 minutes per mile above target pace (which, imo, should be 6.45 just to give yourself a cushion - I had a 60 second wee at 20 miles, maybe that's too much sharing).

As I say in previous post, faster long runs are my plan to go faster next year (plus long mid-weeker).

Very much agree with previous leg strengthening tip though. No need to use weights for this or take much time but doing a few squats and lunges around the house whenever the mood takes you will help - and are low/no impact.
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putt putt




Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's what happened to me:
(3yr plan to break 3hrs)

year 1 - half m time 1.20 = did London. 3.09

year 2 - half m time 1.19 = did London 3.12

year 3 - half m time : didnt do one. Did local marathon with 2 laps, treated it like a long trg run. Worn compression tights. Did 1.29+ and 1.28+ (negative split!) = 2.58

what happened in year 3?

1. I trained over distance and even did a ultra (35miler) a couple of months before the marathon.

2. I used a camelbak with 4:1 on the day and IMPORTANT took on nutrition. Flapjacks etc to start with then into powerbars.

3. I started off comfortably and built into it. When I realised I cd do 2.58 with a strong finish it was there for me. Pacing!

4. I stopped thinking about sub 3 (thereby re-inforcing the thing I didnt want to do ie dont keep mentioning 3 hrs!) and instead picked 2.58 and decided that was my target time and I ran...........2.58..... bingo.
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timmy




Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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Location: ...engine started 18/5/11 after 5years!!

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

putt putt wrote:
here's what happened to me:
(3yr plan to break 3hrs)

year 1 - half m time 1.20 = did London. 3.09

year 2 - half m time 1.19 = did London 3.12

year 3 - half m time : didnt do one. Did local marathon with 2 laps, treated it like a long trg run. Worn compression tights. Did 1.29+ and 1.28+ (negative split!) = 2.58

what happened in year 3?

1. I trained over distance and even did a ultra (35miler) a couple of months before the marathon.

2. I used a camelbak with 4:1 on the day and IMPORTANT took on nutrition. Flapjacks etc to start with then into powerbars.

3. I started off comfortably and built into it. When I realised I cd do 2.58 with a strong finish it was there for me. Pacing!

4. I stopped thinking about sub 3 (thereby re-inforcing the thing I didnt want to do ie dont keep mentioning 3 hrs!) and instead picked 2.58 and decided that was my target time and I ran...........2.58..... bingo.



...entirely agree with points raised - negative split is the ideal way to do it. Easier first half and push on from there. It's having the confidence to hold back in the knowledge that you have the correct training behind you to get the faster second half. Your first two 3hour+ marathons, even though half times ideal for 2:50-ish, were either as a result of going too hard too soon or just that you were 'half marathon fit' but not 'marathon fit'.
It does become an obsession with some people to break 3 hours but why not aim higher, go for sub 2:50, or faster? It took me 6 marathons to break 3 hours then I never went over 3 hours for the next 8. The 9th was Snowdon 3:02!
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Nobbie




Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just seen this thread and it fits in with my goal for next year of going sub 3 at FLM. I had hoped to do it this year, but wasn't in good enough running form so deferred the entry (it took me 5 years of rejections Sad to get the place, so i wasn't going to waste it).

Lots of good advice on this thread, particularly the stuff from Timmy which is the sort of approach I'll be taking. Just need to start running again.

My fastest (only) marathon is 4:03, but that was the beachy head marathon so isn't much of an indicator as I run IM marathons around 4 hours as well. Best 10K is 39mins, best half is 1:26, so i reckon with a winter of solid training I am capable of going sub 3. Looking forward to the journey Very Happy

It will be interesting to see how peoples race times improve over winter. Maybe we could set up a table to show progress like the 30 min treadmill challenge thread last year? I may resurrect this as it was quite a motivator for me to get a fast short run in consistantly.
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The Anti Coach




Joined: 04 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris G wrote:
Top tips Very Happy but I'm interested in this one:

The Anti Coach wrote:

Never try and run for more than 2:30 on your long runs and run them dead slow (you may have to violate this rule once to get a +20 mile run in)


How slow is "dead slow"?? I've always approached LSD as long, steady distance not long, slow distance and will probably be more Z2 than Z1 for these (although I do tend to run them in the hills).

Someone posted this useful link recently: http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm


Dead slow for me this year was 8'00" to 8'30" that's against marathon pace of 6'45". One coach coined it that "if it doesn't feel slow then it's too fast!"

My slow sunday runs were offset by the progressive ones every 3 or so weeks which were hellish

Other coaches advise faster, eg Mike Gratton says run dead slow in the base build up, then during the 14 week marathon trainig period run the sunday long run something more like 30" mile off marathon pace, which seems pretty much what Timmy did - all good, nowt wrong with that but you probably need a large base to start with.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Not sure I agree that runs should be slow. My long runs for this year (2.57) were slow (8mm) but everything I have read says you should run them 30 minutes per mile above target pace (which, imo, should be 6.45 just to give yourself a cushion - I had a 60 second wee at 20 miles, maybe that's too much sharing).

As I say in previous post, faster long runs are my plan to go faster next year (plus long mid-weeker).

Very much agree with previous leg strengthening tip though. No need to use weights for this or take much time but doing a few squats and lunges around the house whenever the mood takes you will help - and are low/no impact.


Quite interesting this as I used to agree with you FD but now not so sure! Basically had a terrible FLM this year (well, the last 5 miles anyway!) when all my long runs had been at race pace. Looking back I had not done the mid-week tempo runs, between 13-17 miles and I was very one paced. In his training book and website Hal Higdon recommends doing your long runs considerably slower than race pace, or at least starting slower and graduallyincreasing pace but only the last 5-6 miles being at race pace. He advocates starting at 10-11 mm if needs be. Apparently, you still get the same physiological benefits that you would get if you were going at race pace with a greater reduction in the risk of injury. HTH
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Team Hurtmore




Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of interesting stuff here...and I sure lots of future debates regarding pacing of long run, short stuff vs long stuff etc. Similar swim questions going on at the moment.

Great to hear from other people's experiences.

One question - I assume that everyone is talking about running a <3hr mara at the end of an IM? Wink Wink
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alexe




Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 1025
Location: East London

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

finbar wrote:
alexe wrote:
finbar wrote:
I have a half marathon at the end of November i'll use to gauge my progress.


Would that be St Neots?


No, Clowne, near Chesterfield). It's not exactly high profile!

Timmy, thanks for the interesting post. Did you ever run doubles?

Also, while i'm here, what weekly mileage are y'all running at the moment/hoping to get to by March? I'm on about 30 at the moment, hoping to hit 50 or higher if no injuries turn up.


Currently in recovery from IMUK so hoping to hit 14 miles this week!!!

Question re the 10% rule that says you should not increase your mileage by more than 10% each week. Would that be not increase from your 3/6 month average (which is about 20 miles per week) or would that be not increase from previous week (post IM was 4 miles).

Reason I ask is if I only go up 10% max. from 4 miles a week it's going to take me forever to get to 40 miles per week!
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timmy




Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 1037
Location: ...engine started 18/5/11 after 5years!!

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Anti Coach wrote:

Other coaches advise faster, eg Mike Gratton says run dead slow in the base build up, then during the 14 week marathon trainig period run the sunday long run something more like 30" mile off marathon pace, which seems pretty much what Timmy did - all good, nowt wrong with that but you probably need a large base to start with.


..that's the whole key to better marathons and ironman races - a large base enables you to get stuck in to the speed and strength endurance stuff in the deadly serious 3 to 4 months before the event!
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waytogoyet




Joined: 17 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

High five to fuzzy dunlop for the 60 sec pee at 20 miles
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waytogoyet




Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Location: East Yorks

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]

Currently in recovery from IMUK so hoping to hit 14 miles this week!!!

Question re the 10% rule that says you should not increase your mileage by more than 10% each week. Would that be not increase from your 3/6 month average (which is about 20 miles per week) or would that be not increase from previous week (post IM was 4 miles).

Reason I ask is if I only go up 10% max. from 4 miles a week it's going to take me forever to get to 40 miles per week![/quote]

Alexe, do a reverse taper over say 4/5 weeks to get back up towards your standard mileage, then apply 10%
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Poet




Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 9990

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

finbar wrote:
No, Clowne, near Chesterfield). It's not exactly high profile!
It's the Derbyshire Half Marathon Championships, a colleague of mine will be trying to win W00t

The Anti Coach wrote:
1:23 is the minimum half pb required for a sub 3

Using the Riegel formula, a bloke my age and weight should be able to run a sub3 mara of a 01:26:20 half time. The slowest 10km is 39:19.

Horses for courses and there's a lot of myths around the sub-3. I'd agree with Putt Putt and call it the 2:58 mara to build a little buffer in there. Good luck to all those attempting it and I wish I was with you Sad Maybe next winter.
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finbar




Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

It's the Derbyshire Half Marathon Championships, a colleague of mine will be trying to win


I might see him disappear at the start line then! Do you know what the course is like? Last year's winner did it in 71min so it must be fairly tough...
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The Anti Coach




Joined: 04 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet wrote:
finbar wrote:
No, Clowne, near Chesterfield). It's not exactly high profile!
It's the Derbyshire Half Marathon Championships, a colleague of mine will be trying to win W00t

The Anti Coach wrote:
1:23 is the minimum half pb required for a sub 3

Using the Riegel formula, a bloke my age and weight should be able to run a sub3 mara of a 01:26:20 half time. The slowest 10km is 39:19.

Horses for courses and there's a lot of myths around the sub-3. I'd agree with Putt Putt and call it the 2:58 mara to build a little buffer in there. Good luck to all those attempting it and I wish I was with you Sad Maybe next winter.


But a 1:23:59 half using Age Grade tables predicts 2:57 which goes along with yours and PuttPutts buffer, also a 1:26 half using Age Grade gives 3:01:50. I think the Reigel formula is a bit generous coz all it does is add 6% time on double the distance and doesnt take into account the fact a lot of us out relatively stocky and don't transfer as well to long distance as we do to short. www.runningforfitness.org

Sorry to be anal with the figures! I got the 1:23 from peoples shared experiences on the RimmersW Sub 3 thread
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