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The sub 3 hour marathon training thread
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Tri it man




Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 1277
Location: Byfleet

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: heart rates Reply with quote

sb20 wrote:
So I have bought a gamin watch with HRM. never run on HRM before, so it has been quite interesting to see how much variance in BPM there is depending on how i am feeling (cold, fresh, hangover, stressed etc) at a given pace.

It looks like my resting rate is 43 to 44 max about 175.

Thoughts on what I should be able to run at for 3 hours. i was thinking about 155?


You're prob about right there. Starting out a bit below your average and hitting close to 90% by the end. You don't want much drift unless you are going faster by the end. My last proper marathon I think averaged 167, started off at low 160's and finished last few miles at high 160's and 171 last mile, off a max of 186/7 at the time I'd guess. One thing is don't become a slave to it during the race. If you're feeling good you may want to ignore the HR a little as the mind is a wonderful thing and that will get you through the tougher bits.
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1414
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: heart rates Reply with quote

Tri it man wrote:
sb20 wrote:
So I have bought a gamin watch with HRM. never run on HRM before, so it has been quite interesting to see how much variance in BPM there is depending on how i am feeling (cold, fresh, hangover, stressed etc) at a given pace.

It looks like my resting rate is 43 to 44 max about 175.

Thoughts on what I should be able to run at for 3 hours. i was thinking about 155?


You're prob about right there. Starting out a bit below your average and hitting close to 90% by the end. You don't want much drift unless you are going faster by the end. My last proper marathon I think averaged 167, started off at low 160's and finished last few miles at high 160's and 171 last mile, off a max of 186/7 at the time I'd guess. One thing is don't become a slave to it during the race. If you're feeling good you may want to ignore the HR a little as the mind is a wonderful thing and that will get you through the tougher bits.


Deffo that. Having not had the chance to use it very much the figures you have suggested are guides only. By that i mean, everyone is different, and whilst your suggested HR looks good on paper, it may not actually translate to a live situation.

People on this thread will have read me bang on about this many times before, but the guides and benchmarks are just that. Until you have spent 3-6 months monitoring your own figures in both trained and untrained states, race and non race, then you have to take it all with a pinch of salt. My HR figures are way above anything that 'should' be sensible according to the accepted thinking, but having years of data, i know what works for me.

Good luck with it all though people. Some great runs popping up on my strava feed amking me jealous this weekend. I didn't manage to get out at all unfortunately due to family commitments and volunteering for a couple of days at a Devon Coast to Coast event ... now that got silly with the weather!!!
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
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Location: Tunbridge Wells

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wouldn't be marathon season without GB talking about his heart rate Very Happy
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1414
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
It wouldn't be marathon season without GB talking about his heart rate Very Happy


It's the only bit of me that's special!! (well some people would say all of me is a bit special!) Very Happy
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YKK




Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 283
Location: North&West london

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: heart rates Reply with quote

Tri it man wrote:
sb20 wrote:
So I have bought a gamin watch with HRM. never run on HRM before, so it has been quite interesting to see how much variance in BPM there is depending on how i am feeling (cold, fresh, hangover, stressed etc) at a given pace.

It looks like my resting rate is 43 to 44 max about 175.

Thoughts on what I should be able to run at for 3 hours. i was thinking about 155?


You're prob about right there. Starting out a bit below your average and hitting close to 90% by the end. You don't want much drift unless you are going faster by the end. My last proper marathon I think averaged 167, started off at low 160's and finished last few miles at high 160's and 171 last mile, off a max of 186/7 at the time I'd guess. One thing is don't become a slave to it during the race. If you're feeling good you may want to ignore the HR a little as the mind is a wonderful thing and that will get you through the tougher bits.


I have a max hr similar to TiM, this is untested but I have seen the old ticker up at those numbers. However I cannot run a good marathon at that level,

My best 2 halves have both come in at 167 avg.
The last 3 marathons (which have got progressively faster) I have kept an eye on hr for the first half and tried to keep it below 161, 158, 155 respectively, if it went over these numbers, no bother, but it kept the pace in some kind of check.
The lower the first half hr, teh stringer I finished, but still I still have not got it correct and cannot hold pace until the end. And this comes from years of monitoring hr.

So after that ramble, if I was you but had a max of 175, I would blow quite badly starting at 155.
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure I'd set my pace based around your HR if I was you, sometimes on race day you can either start with a lower HR because you are rested or even higher because you've stressed yourself thinking about the race.

It could be worth using the current lap pace, e.g. if you autolap every K it will tell you how fast you are going, useful to stop yourself overcooking it at the start.

Sitrep for me, tried some reps at dinnertime and started feeling the IT band on the way back, stopped to cross the road and nearly collapsed in a heap when I went to start again. Trying to get a massage and more rolling etc. fairly quickly now. Worst case I can avoid running until the race but I'd rather not.

Jeff
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Mungo




Joined: 29 Sep 2016
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Location: Preston

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unlucky Jeff
Take your time, we all like to train, but get it looked at and take advice and rest.
How is it now ?
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1190
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear that Jeff.. get on that roller. And swim if you cant run .. cross training benefits are excellent and it may even help loosen you up where needed. Dont want you to miss another VLM !
Taper is tantalisingly close now.... my legs are tired after a hard hill session on monday.. i'm having an easy day today and hoping for a 20 miler tomorrow with some MP thrown in if the legs feel up to it. Ive then got a week in the alps but i will have to avoid the temptation to run as, as much as i love running out there, its just too punishing for taper time and i think it affected me adversely last year.
One last 20 ......
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YKK




Joined: 23 Oct 2011
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Location: North&West london

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:
N Worst case I can avoid running until the race but I'd rather not.

Jeff


4 years ago, when I ran a lot less than I do now, I trapped a nerve in my back riding to work 19 days out from London. I could hardly walk, could manage to turn my legs over on a bike and could turn my arms over to swim.

I did not run for 11 days, tenatative 3k the Saturday of the weekend before, felt ok, 8 miles Sunday and splattering during the final week.

And a pb at London.

So try not to fret, just attack that foam roller like there is no tomorrow.
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PhilleusPhogg




Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 259

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:


Sitrep for me, tried some reps at dinnertime and started feeling the IT band on the way back, stopped to cross the road and nearly collapsed in a heap when I went to start again. Trying to get a massage and more rolling etc. fairly quickly now. Worst case I can avoid running until the race but I'd rather not.

Jeff


Just a question for clarity - what are you foam rolling?

Apologies as I don't know your history and maybe this is teaching you to suck eggs, but as I understand it, given the ITB is a tendon so rolling it doesn't do anything. I believe the pain on the knee is bascially caused by inflammation of the ITB so you just need to allow that to subside (presume anti-inflammatories might help?) and address the issues causing it to inflame in the first place, which more often than not is going to be something tight higher up which is where you should be concentrating your attentions with the roller/massage, plus a period of rest to not make matters worse.

That's all just addressing symptoms though, as always, think about running form, particularly when you're fatigued. The annoying thing about ITB pain is that by the time you feel it on the run, the damage has been done so it's important to be mindful of form before you start getting tired.

Hopefully the rest leaves you fit and fresh for the mara Smile

Disclaimer, I have no medical qualifications whatsoever, just experience of ITB issues Smile
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sb20




Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 902
Location: Beautifull hilly SW Surrey

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the comments - very helpful.

JeffB wrote:


It could be worth using the current lap pace, e.g. if you autolap every K it will tell you how fast you are going, useful to stop yourself overcooking it at the start.

Jeff


This is what i have done previously and have been contemplating doing the same. But I did blow with a couple of miles to go on both previous marathon attempts - I think as much to do with only having 2 gels during the race.

I will wet the watch up to show lap pace per K and BPM and try and balance the two.

Good luck with the ITB - Not good, you may find decent massage can get you mobile, but in my totally non-medical opinion the rest will probably do you little harm physical harm, although it will be metal torture!

The New Fenix is suggesting i will do a 3:07 based on 1 month of data. I would be happy with that given the training, but being a fool will still set off looking for 4:12 k's and see what happens!! If BPM goes north of 155 before 10k I think i will back off a tad and run to BPM. If it is still there at 21k I will hang on for as long as possible before stumbling & crawling over the line in a shaking, vomiting state - situation normal!
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sb20 wrote:
The New Fenix is suggesting i will do a 3:07 based on 1 month of data. I would be happy with that given the training, but being a fool will still set off looking for 4:12 k's and see what happens!!

I can definitely say the Garmin race predictor times are a bit misleading. If you do lots of speed work, it will massively over estimate your potential, and equally if you focus on long and steady, it will underestimate. That's my experience anyway.

Why 4.12/kms out of interest? That gets you in at a rather arbitrary 2.57 and change?
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sb20




Joined: 07 Sep 2011
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Location: Beautifull hilly SW Surrey

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="stenard"]
sb20 wrote:


Why 4.12/kms out of interest? That gets you in at a rather arbitrary 2.57 and change?


I'm hoping for sub 3. So having a minute or two in the bank seems sensible as you never know what might happen. For instance I am happy to piss and run but have yet to get my head around crappy shorts! (nor indeed do i plan to)
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First Tri an evening sprint in 2008 done a few since then inc 2x Roth, IM Wales, 2x Celtman, Alps d'Huez Long, O till O, Ceasers Camp 100 x2, Norseman, Ring O Fire, St Oswalds 100, Cambrian trail, 2 Race to the King, UTMB and so it goes on!
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1190
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
sb20 wrote:
The New Fenix is suggesting i will do a 3:07 based on 1 month of data. I would be happy with that given the training, but being a fool will still set off looking for 4:12 k's and see what happens!!

I can definitely say the Garmin race predictor times are a bit misleading. If you do lots of speed work, it will massively over estimate your potential, and equally if you focus on long and steady, it will underestimate. That's my experience anyway.

Why 4.12/kms out of interest? That gets you in at a rather arbitrary 2.57 and change?


Thats my target pace too. 2h55 (4.09) pace would be a bit punchy and 3h pace (4.16) leaves no leeway if i start to struggle. I will ideally run a slight negative split for 2h57. Hadnt considered factoring in a poo stop.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool, thanks. Where you pitch your "buffer" is always an intriguing one. I was aiming for 4.14/4.15 ish last year, as I really wanted to nail consistent pacing. I then went and ran a 1:26:00 first half and exploded spectacularly. Rolling Eyes

Plans are great. At that time, I was $hite and executing them. I've got better, probably as a result of learning that lesson!
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