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The sub 3 hour marathon training thread
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1241
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Cool, thanks. Where you pitch your "buffer" is always an intriguing one. I was aiming for 4.14/4.15 ish last year, as I really wanted to nail consistent pacing. I then went and ran a 1:26:00 first half and exploded spectacularly. Rolling Eyes

Plans are great. At that time, I was $hite and executing them. I've got better, probably as a result of learning that lesson!


You and me both.. last year there were quite a few suffering though, personally i have a whole bundle of excuses !!
Ive run a bunch of 1.24-1.28 halfs in training this year and they feel fine, with barely discernible difference in effort what with varying training load etc. The different effect on your race between a 1.25 and 1.29 first half of a marathon is potentially immense though!!
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also aiming for a pace of around 4:12/k. Gets me to half way in 1:28:30 and gives a little buffer at the end for a sub 3. I've just read advanced marathoning & they recommend that the first half should be quicker due to more efficient slow twitch being used (something like that anyway).

Also gives me the opportunity of a slightly quicker time if I have it in the legs at the end. I find it is really difficult to predict a finish time, I did my last mara in 3:08 but I have trained properly for this. I can do Yasso's in 2:50 and have just run a sub 1:23 half but there are calculators that say you need a 1:22 half for a sub 3.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's all about the long runs. That's where I fell down last year. I just didnt do enough 20+ milers. I think I only did one, plus another 30k run. The rest were mid 20's km.

The year before for my first, I had done three or four 20+ mile runs, including one of 23.

I think the HM time and yassos are only indicative if you've got that milage also in the bag. I didnt, yet I was also comfortably running 2.50 800 repeats, and did a sub1:23 HM in the built up. I was walking by 16 miles and finished in 3:25.

If you've managed to get those long runs in there, then I think you're in good shape. I did my first marathon in 3:04 off a HM of 1:25.
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Tri it man




Joined: 22 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Yasso is not a good predictor of time as too short to be any good for a 26.2m race. The long runs are your best bet of marathon prediction and also midweek long runs of 13m or more. Builds strong legs and makes all other runs up to 10m seem a walk in the park. I reckon if at 1.23 or better you have good shot. When I ran my sub 3 (2.59) I had a 1.20 half at the time, then I learnt how to run marathons better which meant a lot more miles.
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're efficient over distance and strong, I don't think you need anything quicker than a 1.25 half. 10 mins leeway is plenty for the change in distance, however the reality is most people (relatively) don't have that strength endurance.

As TIM said, Yasso's are way too short. I could probably run them (well when i was fit) at close 2.30 pace, but I was absolutely miles away from that in a mara time.

there really is no easy answer, that's why the marathon is so intriguing.
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1241
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tri it man wrote:
Yeah Yasso is not a good predictor of time as too short to be any good for a 26.2m race. The long runs are your best bet of marathon prediction and also midweek long runs of 13m or more. Builds strong legs and makes all other runs up to 10m seem a walk in the park. I reckon if at 1.23 or better you have good shot. When I ran my sub 3 (2.59) I had a 1.20 half at the time, then I learnt how to run marathons better which meant a lot more miles.


I never really understood the faith in the yasso predictor. There seems to be differing schools of thought on rep and recovery numbers... but regardless, i dont think it matters, even a good 8k race time isnt a great predictor if you dont hit the long miles, as i have discovered in the past.

This is what gives me cause for concern once again... I just dont get time to do huge mileage or cross train and 2018 mileage is relatively low for a sub 3 @ circa 750k. The caveat is that over a third of these are (slightly sub) marathon paced or interval training or hill reps. Looking at this old thread i have no chance..

http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1651839

but i think (hope) these formulae were long since discredited. Conversely my 5k and 10k times in the autumn (17.39 and 37.11) put me reasonably comfortably sub 3.
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been following the 16 week McMillan plan averaging just under 50 mile/week with 5
long runs between 35km and the full distance so hopefully I've done enough to score the sub 3 target.
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1241
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doca wrote:
I've been following the 16 week McMillan plan averaging just under 50 mile/week with 5
long runs between 35km and the full distance so hopefully I've done enough to score the sub 3 target.


Solid. Ive been on the 14 week Twhat winganaprayer plan. My long runs have been 32k hilly/offroad, 32k with 10k sub mp and 36k @ 4.45/k. I'm planning on 20 miles tonight, with some at mp depending on how i feel. Would have liked to have done it earlier but such is life.....
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sb20




Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 902
Location: Beautifull hilly SW Surrey

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

twhat wrote:
Doca wrote:
I've been following the 16 week McMillan plan averaging just under 50 mile/week with 5
long runs between 35km and the full distance so hopefully I've done enough to score the sub 3 target.


Solid. Ive been on the 14 week Twhat winganaprayer plan. My long runs have been 32k hilly/offroad, 32k with 10k sub mp and 36k @ 4.45/k. I'm planning on 20 miles tonight, with some at mp depending on how i feel. Would have liked to have done it earlier but such is life.....


I have been using the Firman institute program but adding in an extra run or two a week as per trainingpeaks advanced 2 program. Last night was 5x1000 on 3:24 with a walked 400 m rest period. Tomorrow will be a warm up then 19:20 5k. Then 16k at MP and just a week to go.

I agree with points above on strength and endurance being the key! As an ultrarunner / LD triathlete I have had to work hard on building up speed. This of course leaves you depleted for the long runs. Its been fun trying to solve the riddle of speed vs long runs. After Brighton I can get back on the trails and enjoy the countryside with slow 30 mile efforts - which I much prefer!
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
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Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sb20 wrote:
twhat wrote:
Doca wrote:
I've been following the 16 week McMillan plan averaging just under 50 mile/week with 5
long runs between 35km and the full distance so hopefully I've done enough to score the sub 3 target.


Solid. Ive been on the 14 week Twhat winganaprayer plan. My long runs have been 32k hilly/offroad, 32k with 10k sub mp and 36k @ 4.45/k. I'm planning on 20 miles tonight, with some at mp depending on how i feel. Would have liked to have done it earlier but such is life.....


I have been using the Firman institute program but adding in an extra run or two a week as per trainingpeaks advanced 2 program. Last night was 5x1000 on 3:24 with a walked 400 m rest period. Tomorrow will be a warm up then 19:20 5k. Then 16k at MP and just a week to go.

I agree with points above on strength and endurance being the key! As an ultrarunner / LD triathlete I have had to work hard on building up speed. This of course leaves you depleted for the long runs. Its been fun trying to solve the riddle of speed vs long runs. After Brighton I can get back on the trails and enjoy the countryside with slow 30 mile efforts - which I much prefer!


5x 1k in 3.24 is none too shabby for "an ultrarunner "! As you say... these kind of sessions do leave you depleted though, i have been very aware of it this year. I'm hoping they've done more good than harm...
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 1245
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilleusPhogg wrote:
JeffB wrote:


Sitrep for me, tried some reps at dinnertime and started feeling the IT band on the way back, stopped to cross the road and nearly collapsed in a heap when I went to start again. Trying to get a massage and more rolling etc. fairly quickly now. Worst case I can avoid running until the race but I'd rather not.

Jeff


Just a question for clarity - what are you foam rolling?

Apologies as I don't know your history and maybe this is teaching you to suck eggs, but as I understand it, given the ITB is a tendon so rolling it doesn't do anything. I believe the pain on the knee is bascially caused by inflammation of the ITB so you just need to allow that to subside (presume anti-inflammatories might help?) and address the issues causing it to inflame in the first place, which more often than not is going to be something tight higher up which is where you should be concentrating your attentions with the roller/massage, plus a period of rest to not make matters worse.

That's all just addressing symptoms though, as always, think about running form, particularly when you're fatigued. The annoying thing about ITB pain is that by the time you feel it on the run, the damage has been done so it's important to be mindful of form before you start getting tired.

Hopefully the rest leaves you fit and fresh for the mara Smile

Disclaimer, I have no medical qualifications whatsoever, just experience of ITB issues Smile



Thanks, PP, yes, when I get this pain it's almost certainly comes from tight glutes, ironically I'd been trying to strengthen them to help with injuries as they don't do much apparently and I'm very quad and front muscle dominated in my running.

So that's where I've been working on, albeit trying to ease the inflammation around the knee, like you say, the pain is at the knee, the problem is higher up. I often find that any issues in the Achilles\foot come from my calfs\shins being tight.

I'm going to try another run tomorrow and take it from there, and I've got at least one massage booked for next week. If it plays up tomorrow or Saturday I'll probably do very little running before the race, that way I should get beyond half way before it gives me much grief, might be a question of stretching\walking after that but hopefully not.

Jeff
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
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Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like quite a few are well placed for Sub-3, is everyone doing London, what about Manchester or Brighton etc.?

Jeff
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1241
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fingers crossed Jeff. I found a really good massage therapist this year and she has made a world of difference. She is pure evil though. 30 minutes of sado masochism once a week. I find rolling my lower back has also made a massive difference recently, like you say.. the symptoms always show themselves some way frmo the actual problem!
London for me, although i do have a Brighton spot i wont be there.

I squeezed in my final long run last night. 8k steady, 20k @ mp. I was fine but tightening up just at the end so only did a 2k warm down so didnt quite make 20 miles but i'm pretty sure it was a worthwhile session 18.7 mile in 2h10m.
Glad to reach the taper and i hope its mythical benefits are more than that. Of my 4 long runs only once have i finished feeling i could do more, although i did also have one day with triple 10ks which was fine too. I havent really run far on fresh legs in the whole 14 weeks and i havent raced since january 14 where i blew up on a 15 mile x-country.
Now to switch to weather-watching.......
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 1245
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone do Manchester, Paris, Rome etc. today? A couple of friends went sub-3 at Manchester.

I managed a last long run on Friday, thought I was going to have to stop a couple of times but just about made it. Knee was sore yesterday but been icing it etc. and it has settled down quite a lot. Probably won't be doing much running now until the race, had wanted to do a fell race next weekend but I'll see what happens this week, will probably try a short run on the dreadmill.

Fortunately the weather seems to be improving a bit and I can get out on the bike.

Jeff
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Tupperware




Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Swindon

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are all the London Marathoners (or other Marathons on 22nd April) doing this weekend?

I normally follow P&D during taper time which has a medium-long 13mile run at some point over the weekend. I normally do it at a reasonable pace.

Any alternatives people have good experience with?
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