Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8459 Location: newcastle under lyme
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: L S D Runs - The Thread, The Information, The Details...
wiganer wrote:
Ok, we all run, and a high proportion of us run long (to varying degrees and long compared to doing nothing), but I thought a thread like this might be a place to share experiences and for the scientists amongst us to post their data.
I have discovered the huge benefits of "running slowly" this winter - LSD runs, always concentrating and working hard to keep all my runs in the target zone. I can now hold a HR 10 beats lower than I was running at last year and I have now started to notice that I am going just that bit quicker each time for the very same effort......very pleased indeed and ages to go yet to the races.....
Anyone new to the sport will be wondering about Zones and how best to train so lets put our thoughts down here for the good of all ......
do all my long run's slow in about Z1 and just Z2, had a good result (IMHO) doing this at IMUK 2007 with 4:40 marathon. i think it is down to your body learning to use it's body fat as fuel, this then means you get lighter, and this helps you move faster. and as your body now knows were to feed it's self lets you go for longer.
any case don't realy care i know it works.... and way to go for geting faster _________________ bad back and fat...so much for being an Ironman
Can't sleep the clowns will eat me
Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 6428 Location: The Shape™
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject:
There are some good quotes in zen and the art of triathlon (Training Scared) this week. They all come from University Phd type-folks and are referenced in the podcasts, but I'll paraphrase a couple:
Quote:
Your body always burns a combination of fat and carbs during exercise...Low intensity exercise doesn't burn nearly as many calories as higher intensity exercise...Cardio exercise helps to burn calories, but it doesn't replace muscle loss experienced through aging, nor does it affect metabolism as much as muscle building strength training does...Your metabolism may run higher after a weights session than after a cardio one...
Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 10248 Location: walking in a Wigan-Wonderland..
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject:
Astounding success today !!!!
I had the time for once on a Saturday - so decided to test the slow running strategy with a 25km run which is the longest I have ever run in training before.
It was also the conclusion of a "run heavy" couple of weeks and with next week devoted to swimming it seemed a fitting way to finish off.
WOW is all I can say........I covered 25km with an ave HR of 141 which was a little higher than the 135-138 I was hoping for but that was down to the hilly profile, 5hrs sleep and a bottle of wine last night
2hrs 47mins.....which is also equal to the longest run (in terms of time) that I have ever done.....how do I feel.....absolutely fantastic......no soreness, no aches and no pains....can run up and down the stairs....felt like I could have carried on a bit too....
Nutrition wise: 1 Powergel, 4 Fruit Pastels and 400ml of water
To be able to do that run at this time is just fantastic for me !!!!
_________________ Energypics TeamWear - Custom Cycling Jerseys, Shorts and Triathlon Race Kit
Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 10248 Location: walking in a Wigan-Wonderland..
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject:
AndyS. wrote:
Nice running there Mr Pie, top bombing.
cheers mate !!! - I now agree long and slow/steady is the way. _________________ Energypics TeamWear - Custom Cycling Jerseys, Shorts and Triathlon Race Kit
cheers mate !!! - I now agree long and slow/steady is the way.
how much slower did you run then normal, and why do you think it will be the way. I'm sorry but i just don't get it, when you say you feel fine isnt that just because you went slow. I mean you shouldn't feel absolutely fine after a 15 mile run should you.
If this is slow distance running is the way forward why don't people just go for a walk.
It's not a criticism mate, I'm just wondering.
_________________ joe skipper
Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 10248 Location: walking in a Wigan-Wonderland..
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject:
skipper wrote:
wiganer wrote:
AndyS. wrote:
Nice running there Mr Pie, top bombing.
cheers mate !!! - I now agree long and slow/steady is the way.
how much slower did you run then normal, and why do you think it will be the way. I'm sorry but i just don't get it, when you say you feel fine isnt that just because you went slow. I mean you shouldn't feel absolutely fine after a 15 mile run should you.
If this is slow distance running is the way forward why don't people just go for a walk.
It's not a criticism mate, I'm just wondering.
The last time I did a 15 mile training run, I was walking/hobbling around like nobodys business. This time no issue.
In terms of time then I ran 16 odd miles last year in about the same time, so I am about 1 mile slower if that makes sense, BUT and this is where it gets exciting.....over a period of one month running slow, I am now 5-10 secs quicker per kilometre for exactly the same heart rate....work it from there why it works !!!! _________________ Energypics TeamWear - Custom Cycling Jerseys, Shorts and Triathlon Race Kit
Joined: 28 May 2006 Posts: 1691 Location: No longer walking in a Wigan wonderland!
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject:
I am a great believer in the weekly LSD as long as it is done in the right context. Personally I feel a lot of AGers fall into the same trap of doing their slow run too fast and their fast run too slow.
From lab testing I know what my HR zones are, I know what my lactate threshold is and I know how to pace my various runs.
From previous discusions with Wiggy I know our HR zones are roughly the same. My E1 zone is 135 - 148 and I normally average 144/145 for LSD. So whilst it may look slow on paper I would think Wiggy is right in the bottom part of the right zone.
Burnout would be my concern, sudden increase in mileage isn't good - so I would keep it off road if possible.
_________________ It's not the training you put in. It is what you put into the training.
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 Posts: 4101 Location: Running on empty
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject:
I'm loving all this LSD stuff...
Anyone that knows the way I usually run would say I can't really do much else but, since my latest plan kicked in I've been sticking to RPE and time training. Meaning my long run has been done with a mate and we run to a pace we can both talk at (how old skool is that!?).
My other runs have inlcluded Lactic intervals, not all out sprints but pretty close and I've been making these longer.
Thursday night I did my long 'un on the treadmill, had a 1:30 planned and managed 1:40 easy, well, besides being bored rigid.
Set the pace at 10km/h and barely felt out of breath at the end. That's the longest run I've done since last September and I felt fantastic. Over 10miles and not puffing like a
I too will be continuing on the long road to easy running
Oh, P.S. even before Xmas 10km/h would have felt "steady" rather than "easy"
_________________ If you test yourself there are two results. It might go right or it might go wrong, but if you had the intention to test it, it's never wrong.
Even if the result is not what you expected, just wake up and do it again...
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 Posts: 4101 Location: Running on empty
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject:
Old Bob wrote:
I don't understand. Is there any other sort of running? I've never tried it...
I forgot to mention, the best I will probably be able to hope for at Lanza is a 4:30-4:45 run, maybe a bit under if it's a particulalry good day, but to be training at below that and it feeling that good this early on I'm a very happy bunny
How's your tummy today Bob?...
...Still there? _________________ If you test yourself there are two results. It might go right or it might go wrong, but if you had the intention to test it, it's never wrong.
Even if the result is not what you expected, just wake up and do it again...
Joined: 15 Aug 2008 Posts: 2865 Location: Kingston
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject:
wiganer wrote:
BUT and this is where it gets exciting.....over a period of one month running slow, I am now 5-10 secs quicker per kilometre for exactly the same heart rate....work it from there why it works !!!! :)
Yes, BUT, the point is you're training to improve the the long slow running - you're become more efficient at the intensity you're running at. How much that translates to other distances and paces will depend a lot on your fitness. If you're not coming off a lot of running fitness, then it will almost certainly lift everything - which is why many people proclaim great success with the plan. However if you are aleady pretty running fit, or are doing events very different from the long slow stuff, then the benefits are going to be much more marginal (and for a triathlete who could invest the training time in a recovery ride, rather than a recovery run even more so)
As a runner who now cycles more, I've pretty much given up any long slow running, and I still see big training improvements (both in HR cost for certain paces over certain courses, and in time for the same course) without any Long Slow work at all.
As I say though, people are different, both in their capabilities, their current fitness, the way they adapt to training, and their goals.
For the 4 hour + standalone marathon guy, training to finish an Ironman, LSD work is probably not a bad thing. Watching an ironman run from about 11 hours into the race is depressing, too many people are simply walking. LSD work may well help people avoid that - they won't be as fast as perhaps they could have been. That's okay though, they can always do that next year, when the LSD work has stopped giving much in the way of returns.
Joined: 01 Apr 2005 Posts: 1080 Location: On the way back...
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:28 am Post subject:
Rofster wrote:
Old Bob wrote:
I don't understand. Is there any other sort of running? I've never tried it...
I forgot to mention, the best I will probably be able to hope for at Lanza is a 4:30-4:45 run, maybe a bit under if it's a particulalry good day, but to be training at below that and it feeling that good this early on I'm a very happy bunny
How's your tummy today Bob?...
...Still there?
still there... but shrinking bit by bit... don't worry, I'm sure I'll keep up when the time comes _________________ Bob - 9 : IronMan -1
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 2962 Location: Far From The Madding Crowd
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject:
Good idea for a thread Mr W. As someone who is training for their first marathon (Lochaber in April) this is right up my street..
I can run for 2.30 or 2.45 hours now but am concerned that my HR is too fast for much of that. I'm often high 150's with a Max HR of 192. Breathing is controlled throughout tho.
I have run 3 days on the trot..inc LSD on Sunday..and know I've overdone it (woke up bodily and mentally tired today despite a good night's sleep last night). Rest day today.
I'm aiming for up to 4/5 weekly 20 miler LSDs...and have my first 20 miler race on 1st March. _________________ 2010 Events: Wiggle Epic Sportive (18/4), Cornwall Tor Sportive (16/5), Sherborne Sprint Tri (29/8 ) New Forest Mara (26/9), others tbc.
"Talk minus action equals zero." M F Twight (via DOA)
"I am not the same as when I began." John Lydon, PiL
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 7749 Location: Natalie Portman. No, Rachel Stevens. No, Natalie Portman.
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject:
Sometimes my longer runs are absolute disasters and it takes me all day to recover. Other times I mince along quite happily and feel good-to-go within half an hour of getting back. I doubt whether my HR varies that much between the two but I know my pace does. Go figure.
_________________ Unfathomable multisport potential. Humility and shyness the only limiters
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but, since my latest plan kicked in I've been sticking to RPE and time training. Meaning my long run has been done with a mate and we run to a pace we can both talk at (how old skool is that!?).
