"do 2 or 3 faster/higher intensity/HB sessions (whatever discipline) a week destroy the benefits of LSD or not?"
I think from what I can tell there are two schools of thought on this as least. Mark Allen style its all LSD with the aim that when you do suddenly shock the system with faster stuff you get a supra optimal response and adaption.
Or there's the Endurance Nation style of thinking - "use it or lose it". If you don't stress the anabolic pathways then you'll lose some of the training advantages you have previously gained.
Little research on long term use of either. Sure studies show if you do x for y weeks this works but not much over longer periods of time in trained athletes rather than joe public. And hard to know if same thing will work in all athletes or if some are more suited to one method than another.
For me years of running slowly mean that I've got slower. Always said that I could just keep going no matter what with little effort. So I'm one of the people that this scheme isn't meant for I have a good base and haven't been training at too high an intensity. But the one thing of this that I have done is run more
Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Posts: 624 Location: Out running with H
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject:
zl wrote:
Little research on long term use of either. Sure studies show if you do x for y weeks this works but not much over longer periods of time in trained athletes rather than joe public. And hard to know if same thing will work in all athletes or if some are more suited to one method than another.
For me years of running slowly mean that I've got slower. Always said that I could just keep going no matter what with little effort. So I'm one of the people that this scheme isn't meant for I have a good base and haven't been training at too high an intensity. But the one thing of this that I have done is run more
Zl- you are right - if all you ever do is run slow - all you ever will do is run slow! (Make sense????)
This is all about providing the best springboard possible in your base building phase so that once you start piling on the quality and more intense sessions you can recover quicker and perform more efficiently.
To use the old saying "Think of a pyramid: the wider the base (in other words the more LSD), the higher the peak (the better the race performance.".
You still have to do the training in between the two ranges.
Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 632 Location: south wales
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:47 pm Post subject:
I've been following this thread with interest but couldn't really apply it to myself until now - i've just got myself a HRM yay!
Today's long run to work this morning was 8.5 miles and i tried to keep the HR down but ended up with an average of 157...(theoretical max = 184).
I felt I could not really run any slower without actually stopping - should i stop now and then to drop the HR? This morning when my FR305 was beeping at me constantly for being above Zone 2 I just decided to switch it off!
However this was my first day of recording HR on this run, so will have to monitor it over the next few weeks and see if I can get it down - maybe a combination of fatigue through the week?
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 1075 Location: A southerner up in Yorkshire
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:57 am Post subject:
I'd say you've either got to slow down or you zones are wrong.
How have you calculated your zones?
_________________ 2007: Norseman
2008: Moving house
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I've been following this thread with interest but couldn't really apply it to myself until now - i've just got myself a HRM yay!
Today's long run to work this morning was 8.5 miles and i tried to keep the HR down but ended up with an average of 157...(theoretical max = 184).
I felt I could not really run any slower without actually stopping - should i stop now and then to drop the HR? This morning when my FR305 was beeping at me constantly for being above Zone 2 I just decided to switch it off!
However this was my first day of recording HR on this run, so will have to monitor it over the next few weeks and see if I can get it down - maybe a combination of fatigue through the week?
Not read this thread for a while and agree with gingeadams.
If you find you're still struggling to work out your zones, it might help to use your RPE (rate of perceived exertion) - sorry if this has been covered previously.
It should feel:
Easy at LSD effort
Steady for tempo runs
Hard for intervals below threshold
Very hard for threshold and above
Alternatively, you can get a rough idea from your pace:
Sub threshold intervals are approx half marathon pace
Steady running would be about 30-45s/mile slower
Easy running 30-45s/mile slower than steady
For example, if you run a half marathon in 1:30, then your pace is a little faster than 7 min/mile. This means your steady pace would be around 7:30-7:45/mile and LSD at about 8:15-8:30/mile.
Hope that helps _________________ At what point did Mr T learn about ultra-running?
"Make friends with pain and you'll never be alone" - Ken Chlouber, creator of the Leadville Trail 100
"‘You do that again, you'’ll meet my friend Pain" - BA Baracus
Joined: 22 Apr 2005 Posts: 523 Location: Bristol, UK
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject:
ttowel wrote:
Wiggy, if you ever try this you will understand what pace you need to run at.
In learning to run LSD for the double i did 2 controversial and difficult things which may be of some interest.
1) Breathed through my nose, if you can do it easily then the pace is too slow, if its too hard and you feel like you are suffocating, then its too fast. You can achieve a nice balance after a while, most of my running in the dark hours was done nasal breathing, especially uphill as you can sense it speeding up.
2) Eating 30 mins before running, not recommending this but for me it was a learning curve about how much i could eat and still run. At 80% pace you would get cramp and puke, at slower paces i found i could run closer and closer to eating, and even managed to eat 2000 calories of solid food during a 2 hour run at around 7 min mile pace.
It took time to do, and sometimes got it wrong, but it kept the pace slow and steady
I think a lot of people get too hooked on numbers from their HRM. Use ttowel's advice and you should be about right.
Gordo and others quote that the aerobic threshold is the point where one's breathing just begins to stop being completely comfortable. And that's about where you should be to maximise your aerobic training sessions.
Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Posts: 624 Location: Out running with H
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject:
notmilk wrote:
gingeadams wrote:
I'd say you've either got to slow down or you zones are wrong.
How have you calculated your zones?
zones taken as those given by fr305 based on max of 220 minus age (36).
so: z1= 50-60%; z2=60-70%; z3=70-80%; z4=80-90%; z5=90-100%.
Actually felt quite comfortable - but if i wanted to bring HR down i would virtually have to stop!
Guess i'll have to try ttowel's breathing method see if that will slow me down...
220 -age calc is croc of #@?#!
You are right that breathing is good guide.
If you breath through your nose rather than your mouth, once you find it is difficult to get enough oxygen then you are going too fast.
Run breathing through nose but feeling comfortable.
At 36 going off Allens Maffetone calc you should be at 141.
The fact this would be "walking" means that you awould benefit immensely from this type of training but to start with you would need to stick to it.
You won't walk for ever. Give yourself 6 weeks and stick to it.
_________________ www.briannew.com - My blog
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220 -age calc is croc of #@?#! - You are right that breathing is good guide. -
If you breath through your nose rather than your mouth, once you find it is difficult to get enough oxygen then you are going too fast. Run breathing through nose but feeling comfortable.
Can you just clarify please. Would you say breathing through nose would be zone 2, and once need to breath through mouth into zone 3? Ta.
Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Posts: 624 Location: Out running with H
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:52 am Post subject:
nevans wrote:
Can you just clarify please. Would you say breathing through nose would be zone 2, and once need to breath through mouth into zone 3? Ta.
In summary - yes.
Probably best article on why and how of nasal breahing I have come across is
Lisa Engles - Top American Track Coach wrote:
Nasal Breathing - Secret Weapon
I encourage everyone to use this month to begin the practice of
nasal breathing. You can think of nasal breathing as the `secret
weapon’ in your bag of training tools. Over the past five years,
I’ve used this technique both personally and with my athletes to
create incredible performance breakthroughs.
There’s one hook to nasal breathing: you have to be willing to set
aside your ego and allow your body to adapt to this technique. Which
means, for a short period of time it will seem as if you are getting
worse, instead of better with your running. This is precisely why I
introduce this technique during the off season. If you commit to
regular use of nasal breathing during every run that you do between
now and January, you will reap the rewards of this secret training
weapon.
So what is nasal breathing and why is it so good for you? Nasal
breathing, just as the name implies, means to breathe only through
your nose during endurance activity (running and even cycling).
We’re all born into this world as nasal breathers which means that
we don’t possess the voluntary ability to breath through our mouth.
Mouth breathing is a learned response that is triggered by an
emergency stress. If an infant’s nose becomes obstructed, it begins
to suffocate and starts to cry. The crying forces air into the
mouth and through the lungs. Mouth breathing becomes a way to get
large quantities of air into the lungs quickly in order to deal with
survival. Once the emergency is over, the infant returns to
breathing through its nose.
We LEARN to breathe through our mouth as infants, and become
conditioned so that under the first signs of stress, including
exercise stress later in life we shift to our emergency mode of
breathing— through the mouth.
There are several important reasons WHY nasal breathing is so
beneficial to you and your overall performance in triathlon. They
are: 1. Our nose is made to breathe with 2. Nasal breathing
disarms the bodies stress response 3. There’s a direct correlation
between nasal breathing and heart rate (exertion levels). I’ll
discuss each briefly below.
Our Nose Is Made To Breath With
While this may sound like an obvious statement, the more important
implication is that our Mouth Is NOT made to breathe with! To give
you a quick anatomy lesson, the nose, with it’s intricate design,
allows for optimal respiration during rest and exercise. The inner
nose is made up of small ridges called turbinates which act as
turbines to swirl air into a refined stream that is suitable for
oxygen exchange. The entire passageway of the nose is lined with a
protective mucus membrane that keeps it moist and wards off
infection. The mucous membrane in combination with small hair like
cilia act to clean and filter incoming air. The air is warmed,
cooled, or moistened depending on the conditions, by our nasal
passage.
The mouth on the other hand, is a more direct emergency route. It
bypasses all preliminary phases, and the cold, dry, unfiltered air
is allowed to enter directly into the lungs.
The Nervous System Response to Nasal Breathing
When we breathe air directly from the mouth into the lungs, a
survival response is triggered in the nervous system. As a result,
a fight-or-flight reaction is activated causing the release of
adreneline and cortisol which are both degenerative hormones. They
contain waste products called free radicals, which are believed to
be the leading cause of aging, cancer, disease and death. In
addition, the body responds to this stress by Storing Fat and
burning sugar. So if we can train our body to handle more stress
without responding to it as an emergency (via nasal breathing),
we’ll have taken a huge step in the fight against fat, aging and
disease.
Breathing through the nose stimulates the parasympathetic nervous
system which calms the mind and rejuvenates the body.
The Correlation Between Breath Rate and Heart Rate
Probably the most frustrating and difficult aspect of nasal
breathing for beginners is that initially, it feels like you’re
breathing through two, tiny cocktail straws . The passage way from
the nose to the lungs is much smaller than from the mouth to the
lungs, so until you’ve developed a strong diaphragm that is able to
effectively pull air into the lower lobes of the lungs, you will
feel like you’re not getting enough air.
I see this as a blessing in disguise. By this point in the season,
most of us are over trained and NEED to slow down. Nasal breathing
will force you to slow down in the beginning, giving your body the
appropriate rest that it needs and deserves after months of hard
work. As with any muscle, the more you use it the stronger it
becomes. Through nasal breathing, the diaphragm will become a
stronger, more efficient muscle, making nasal breathing considerably
easier with time and practice.
Due to the need for longer, deeper breaths, one of the inherent
results of nasal breathing is a slower breath rate. There is a
direct correlation between breath rate and heart rate so that a
slower breath rate will entrain a slower heart rate. The average
athlete who consistently uses mouth breathing will have a breath
rate of anywhere between 30-40 breaths per minute during exercise.
During nasal breathing this number is generally cut in half! This
has an incredible amount of significance when you realize that
simply though nasal breathing, you can lower your breath rate which
will in turn, lower your heart rate at any given intensity. The end
result being that during a race, you’d have more in your energy
reserves to out-run your competitors!
My coach (vv highly rated) has me nasal breathing (and seems to be wroking) but interestingly I can run harder comfortably nasal breathing than the top of Z2 (my LTHR is 157 lab tested, I can nasal breath up until hi-140's). Therefore, still need to watch my HR carefully.
I used to have a deviated septum so wondering if the diaphram strength I built fighting this was a factor.
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 398 Location: In and around Surrey
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject:
Interesting read this... personally I don't really agree totally with Maffetone method. It works wonders for someone like Mr Allen, simply because he'd been a pretty decent athlete before. I don't think a beginner can look at that method and say... yeah I'll stick it!
I'd be saying, run on feel for at least 3 months, don't step the mileage up too quickly, and once you have been consistent in training and you're either no longer improving or simply want a guide then try a different method.
I monitor ave HR on longer runs, but never run to Heart Rate... I've even been known to stick in a couple 1km reps at half marathon pace in the middle of them.
I know a few people who have run a decent marathon and probably average Hr for the marathon in high 170's to low 180's. I've always said you have train with a HRM for a good few weeks, and be analytical about how you felt, weather etc to actually read into using one as a training tool. It's never as easy as, it worked for Mark Allen, it'll work for me!
TTowel abuot the best advice out there... how hard are you breathing! I normally run steady and once I've suffered or felt 'flat' for 10-15min that's my limit. The next week... add 10mins.
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 2942 Location: Far From The Madding Crowd
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:14 pm Post subject:
Lovin this thread. I ran 20 miles for the 1st time yesterday as part of training for my first marathon mid-April. I kept the HR down to 150 (Max is 192) and felt very comfortable for first 10 miles. The HR started to creep up after that but still kept it down sub 170. Form could of been better I'm sure. Never quite sure what to do with me hands!
Anyway, a question: I'm doing a 20 mile race next Sunday in the New Forest. What approach to HR/pace should I take? I want to complete my marathon in sub 4 hours. This may sound like a modest goal I know, but I've been laid off from running until last December..so haven't had much base running fitness to work off.
I'm tempted to use my Garmin 305's virtual partner to work off a pace in line with this goal. Is this too ambitious and a complete training faux-pas? _________________ 2010 Events: Wiggle New Forest Epic Sportive (18/4), Cornwall Tor Sportive (16/5), New Forest Mara (26/9) others tbc.
"An unexamined life isn't worth living." Socrates
"I am not the same as when I began." John Lydon, PiL
Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 173 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject:
Thanks for responses to all or some question - personally I think for the majority of non-elites a mix may be best and I'm a believer in developing the whole.
Nello - if it was me I would aim to run the 20 miles at goal marathon pace (or more precisely the first 10miles at slightly slower then 2nd 10 slightly faster) BUT be very willing to back off and finish with positive frame of mind / in ok shape.
Tried Nasal Breathing this weekend whilst away from home in hills, corresponds well to my idea of LSD, if anything probably slightly too easy & used this to pick up pace a little.
Guy
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Joined: 22 Apr 2005 Posts: 523 Location: Bristol, UK
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:07 am Post subject:
I was thinking about how many people always say - If all you do is long slow (even steady) running, then you will always be a slow/steady runner.
Well, I have been doing virtually all LSD runs since the middle of December, building my volume towards the ONER ultra. Yesterday I ran the Tough Ten Challenge and maintained a pace that I did not think would have been possible, given that I have been only LSD training, and I had no taper before the race (did a 20miler earlier in the week).
Now, I'm not sure if the course was a bit short of the supposed Tough Ten miles, but I completed it in 68 mins, and felt pretty strong throughout the race despite feeling fatigued and tired going into the race.
I'll be doing the Bath Half in a few weeks time, and I was expecting to be probably 5-10mins slower than my fastest HM time (1h29m), but now I think I might be much closer to my PB.
So, I'm a real fan of this type of training, and wonder why I beat myself up training too hard previously (which lad to a poor result in my first marathon).
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