AndyS.. - out of interest, when was the last time you ran 20 miles and how did that feel? How did you feel afterwards? Are you sure you couldn't have gone quicker adopting the 9/1 strategy?
I've only ever run 20 miles three times, the three times I ran them I felt knackered at the end but that's half the point of running so far, it's a breakthrough session that pushes your endurance up a peg. If I'd have run/walked I'd have felt better but as I said, I wouldn't have run 20 miles then would I. I bought that point up earlier, by run/walking are you getting the same level of breakthrough as you would if you'd have run/run? I can't see it myself, if you end a run/walk and don't feel as beaten up as a run/run then surely you've not gained the same level of adaption in musclular endurance?
John also said that people are telling him they fall back a fraction in the first half of an IM marathon then over take the people they fell back on in the third quarter and make ground on them in the fourth quarter of the run. To me, if you'd have run the first half fully you'd already be ahead of those people. Sure, maybe you'd loose some of that advantage as you fade towards the end but I still can't see how run/walk is such an advantage in that respect, you're just reversing how the run plays out.
Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 6428 Location: The Shape™
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:57 am Post subject:
This is what it's trying to alleviate - the power of the fade. If I can run/walk consistently at 4:37/km, I'd much rather do that than start out at 4:03/km for the first 16km then fading away until a slow death march to the finish, not knowing at what pace I'll end up.
Personally, the 10 minutes breaks it up into 20 easy to manage chunks of time.
If you die a 1000 deaths then you paced it wrong anyway, something you could easily do before you even get to the run. So executing a good run/run or run/walk requires dicipline but probably more so in a run/run situation.
And, I bring us back to the question I posted in the first pages, you say you can hold 4:37 from longer if you run/walk and 'only' 16km at 4:03 when run/running but why not run/run at 4:20 and hold that for 30km then fade to 4:30? Saying Gordo ran/walked a 1:20 half marathon doesn't mean run/walk if faster does it? There's no way of knowing what he'd have done if he'd run/run.
Personally, I think people are going for it because it's easier. We all love things easier but I still fail to see how it's faster, IF the run/run is paced correctly.
Oh, and another thing. Run/walk will mask over training issues for a long time. It's partly how I got in the poop, kept run/walking and telling myself it's all part of the master plan. Reality was I wasn't able to run/run because I was fudged.
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 4172 Location: Exiled in Birmingham
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject:
Andy you are missing the most important factor in any session and thats recovery. If you beat yourself up and cant train properly for a few days then basically you have wasted those days and the so called breakthrough session has really achieved nothing.
having done the 9:1 method as I previously said I managed to run without beating myself up and was able to do a tempo bike the following day, and a speed run session 48 hours later. Also on my brick sessions the l runs were done this way after a long bike and I was able to train effectively the following day with a long swim and no problems.
Surely the most important thing with any training is not a luddite view of if its not beating me up then it cant be doing me any good. Why train the following day when I can be laid up and mullered by pushing too hard the previous day.
Consistancy of training is what its all about and being able to continually push on but in small increases without injury or missed sessions.
5 athletes started IMUK and those who trained effectively and consistantly but were not the fastest finished first whilst the speedsters who spent more on physio and missed more days, got their asses whooped. Moral there somewhere
_________________ Pain is temporary.....Pride is forever
I'll give you that one, it does mean you'll recover quicker and get back to it. But if you do your base work, increase your distances sensibly then you ought to hit the big miles with minimal damage. At least not the sort that'll sideline to for a couple of days (although I always had a day off after a long-long run just to be sure I was OK).
I'm not against run/walk, I've done a whole load of it myself, but I don't see it's as the miracle fix that IM Talk and relevant guest speakers are suggesting it is. With well structured training and a well executed race plan, an 'ordinary' run/run strategy will serve you well in a race - if that's the way you want to go. Like me.
Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 5600 Location: Wellington, NZ
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:07 am Post subject:
I remain interested by this... Andy, why are you so anti this? From a couple of perspectives it works well.
1. Recovery, surely all intensive training is about how well you recover? The effects people are describing is more than the difference between a 17 and 20 mile run.
2. Additional speed over long distance... I haven't used it in a structured way before but may practise it in some triathlons in December to use in Wanaka in January (along with the aid stations)...
_________________ 'Mon the Biff
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 4172 Location: Exiled in Birmingham
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:43 am Post subject:
Regardless of your base background big run mileage will always cause breakdown and fatigue once you go over 2.30-2.45 even those athletes who take longer than 4 hours for the marathon. So again this 9:1 method helps the breakdown and recovery and that is what the beauty of it is.
look at PAula Ratcliffe and her background in base yet she is often sadly injured, I know many IM elites who refuse to run over 2 hours because of the risk of injury and they didnt become elite without having the base.
At the end of the day its not how you get from A to B but what is the fastest and most effective way, and if breaking this run down into chunks helps you mentally, or the breaks give you chance to fuel up properly or the breaks give you chance to let your body recovery before the next interval then other than some perceiving it as being slower because you are walking at stages what other disadvantage does it offer over a run/run ?
_________________ Pain is temporary.....Pride is forever
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8459 Location: newcastle under lyme
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:16 am Post subject:
i strated to Run/walk in the build for IMuk 2007 due to back problems, and did it in the race and managed a 4:40 marathon
and have done this ever since, i rememebr a women at Bala half that yea almost snearing at me because i was walking, passed her at mile 7 and never seen her again.
i do mainly 9:1 ratio but have played with 14:1 but found it to long. but found it intreasting regarding the bit's about towards the end make the run breacks shorter to about 5min:30 sec
also remember e-mail john at IMtalk and asking him about this and he did say that he thought it was wrong and you should never walk strange how things turn around
_________________ bad back and fat...so much for being an Ironman
Can't sleep the clowns will eat me
I'm not anti it, just weighting it up and thinknig it through. I've never done a run/run Ironman to compare it to which is part of the problem of course. I've done plenty of run/walk, all clocking very similar times to Ray which, to be fair to us both, isn't a reflection of our capabilities. In 2005/6 I was capable of running a straight forward marathon of 3:30, having done 20 mile very hilly runs in 3 hours. Add a bit for fatigue in an IM and 4:40-50 doesn't reflect what I was expecting (even deleting 10 minutes for pratting about doesn't bring it back it the right time). Last year I walked the whole of the marathon in NZ because I was a wally and went nuts on the bike but clocked 5:47 which is 13:14/mile - 8:13/km so I can do the fast walking but just fine.
Of course the underlying question in my case is why haven't I done a run/run marathon and that's because I wasn't able to, mostly due to heat in Austria 2005/6 and run/walk sorts that out just fine and in Sherborne I had motivational problems and couldn't be bothered. Maybe I should do another Ironman, do a run/run then get back to you but at the moment, my figures aren't saying run/walk is the fastest way from T2 to the finish line.
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8459 Location: newcastle under lyme
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:16 am Post subject:
hopefully come oct i will be able to say what my stright marathon time will be in a run/walk as comapred to an IM marathon
with this training i am planing to shortern the run walking further into the race as mentioned in the podcast
so plan to start with 9:1 and then cut it down to 5:30sec the second half of the race
will listern to the podcast again to clarify i am doing it right _________________ bad back and fat...so much for being an Ironman
Can't sleep the clowns will eat me
In 2005/6 I was capable of running a straight forward marathon of 3:30, having done 20 mile very hilly runs in 3 hours.
Did you run a 3:30 or are you guessing that was what you were capable of based on a 20 mile run?
A guess based on one 20 mile run and a follow up run of 21 miles holding the same pace. I finished those feeling tired as you'd expect but well capable of going on for another 5-6 miles. Maybe I'd have faded if I'd have run on but not to the point where I'd take another 90 minutes to cover the distance and bring the straight forward run time into the IM run time bracket.
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 5885 Location: St. Luke's, London
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:04 am Post subject:
Howdy. I've listened to coach McGee's discussion of this, along with trying this out for three or four runs now, so I'm convinced of its value (yesterday I did a hilly three-hour run and I'm not wrecked today).
Now I'm considering how to execute this in my race plan. As you may know, my A race for the year is Powerman Zofingen, which has a very hilly run course. I will probably run all of run 1 (10K) and apply the run-walk for run 2.
Here's my dilemma: Last year I really broke down on run 2 as my back was very fatigued, as there are significant portions of uphill running before reaching a flattish section about 3K into the run (and again after about 18K as it's a two-lap course). So ... this year my plan is to jog out of transition, walk the water/fuel station just outside of transition, then run to a very steep-but-short ramp about a quarter-mile into the run, walk the ramp, and then run the next few hundred yards to the woods where the long uphill starts.
Now at this point, I'm not sure what to do. Nine minutes on, one minute walk? Shorten the run segment until I get up the hill? Let the race conditions dictate? What does the massive think?
Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 11847 Location: Forestman bound...
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:33 am Post subject:
Sounds like mentally you've split the run route into 2 distinct zones, 1 you know will be tough/hilly and bad on your back and the other flatter one that'll be (relatively) easier.
How about a 4:1 or 5:1 for the hilly bit and 9:1 for the faster section?
Sure to be teaching grandma here, but are you working on your back strength/flexabilty mate?
_________________ 2010 Marshman, Forestman and 1 sprint
The Dove World Outreach Centre - putting the 'mental' back in fundamentalist.
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 5885 Location: St. Luke's, London
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:41 am Post subject:
schedboy wrote:
Sure to be teaching grandma here, but are you working on your back strength/flexabilty mate?
Pilates all year. Also going to be raising the bars a weenie bit to relieve some of the pressure. Last year I thought my neck was going to be the problem.
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