Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Measuring Fitness and Training Stress
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Russ C




Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trig wrote:

Iíd be interested to hear if anyone is using TL as a predictive tool, as suggested by Russ. Iím coming to the meaty end of a training plan for the London marathon and it might be interesting to input my predicted TRIMP scores for planned sessions all the way to race date and thereby get a picture of how well my taper looks in reducing fatigue (ATL) and increasing form (TSB) and whether it needs adjusting. I know the Training Influence curve is supposed to help with this but doesnít break it down to the individual session level.


Sorry, can't comment on doing it with TL. I've been using WKO+ and putting in manual workouts for my race tapers. Then I'll adjust them to get roughly the taper I want. I find it useful for planning final workouts and if things get moved around in the last week I can adjust for it. Of course I'm still not certain of exactly what is the best values for ATL/TSB at race day!

Having been frustrated with how laborious WKO+ was I implemented the PMC in excel and simply put together my usual training plans, estimate a TSS score and have a predictive chart for the next few months. Then I've gone back and adjusted sessions to control how long I dip into negative TSB for bike and run. Hopefully it'll stop me over doing it in one area and having to spend too long recovering.

Russ
_________________
Blog - Twitter - Coaching - Training Camp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chrisg




Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 675
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is all very good reading, but I'm having a problem of working out which software to use.
Across several computers I've got a few installed
1) Ismarttrain - native mac application but is only really good a training log
2) Sporttracks - good doesn't work natively on mac, and on my netbook the display doesn't work fully
3) Poweragent - I like this, but since getting an Edge 500 doesn't work too well
4) WKO+ works well and accepts the Edge 500, but can't upload directly from my Forerunner 305

So I've got 4 different bits of software and none of them seem to give me everything I want without importing and exporting to get different file formats, but doing this every (couple of) day(s) gets a bit tedious.
_________________
London Team Pursuit Champion
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8067
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ C wrote:
Sorry, can't comment on doing it with TL.


Maryka did it with training load (the link to her blog discussion on tapering were in the original notes)

Since I don't plan races, I don't peak or taper (indeed I think a lot of athletes over do tapering and lose fitness throughout the year, I really want Russ to do one of his IM's taper free with a good -20% of CTL TSB to see that the Taper isn't gaining him that much, and could be losing him fitness over these mid-season races. So I've never done it.

With Training Load, you need to tick the Forecast button in the TL settings, and then you can manually enter workouts in the future and override the TRIMP of them by putting TRIMP=123 (or whatever) in the summary field for it.
_________________
Jibbering Sports Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
die trying




Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 1078
Location: Doha

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisg wrote:
4) WKO+ works well and accepts the Edge 500, but can't upload directly from my Forerunner 305


Save the file and import it into WKO+. Its quicker than using the device agent anyway. I do this for my Garmin and SRM because the device agent takes so long. I think WKO is the business for cycling but has limitations for running.
_________________
2011
Dubai Marathon
Abu Dhabi Triathlon
IM Lanzarote
IM Florida
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stu l-p




Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 2322
Location: solihull

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is all very interesting but as someone who doesn't have all the data gizmos - i have a garmin 205 and non-downloadable hrm any ideas on how to adapt this theory - would you use RPE for example?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8067
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure you could use RPE, or average HR for a workout - all you need to do is quantify the stress (duration*intensity) such that you end up with numbers, and make it so the higher intensities are worth proportionately a little more than the lower ones.

So if you can score a workout, you can use a performance manager approach. It won't be ideal, but it's probably better than nothing.
_________________
Jibbering Sports Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
chrisg




Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 675
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

die trying wrote:
chrisg wrote:
4) WKO+ works well and accepts the Edge 500, but can't upload directly from my Forerunner 305


Save the file and import it into WKO+. Its quicker than using the device agent anyway. I do this for my Garmin and SRM because the device agent takes so long. I think WKO is the business for cycling but has limitations for running.


but to get the .tcx files from my forerunner I need to import into GTC first, then export them out, and import into WKO. It's just a bit annoying to import twice as such.

It's a shame there isn't a do it all program.
_________________
London Team Pursuit Champion
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Russ C




Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
Russ C wrote:
Sorry, can't comment on doing it with TL.

Since I don't plan races, I don't peak or taper (indeed I think a lot of athletes over do tapering and lose fitness throughout the year, I really want Russ to do one of his IM's taper free with a good -20% of CTL TSB to see that the Taper isn't gaining him that much, and could be losing him fitness over these mid-season races. So I've never done it.


Well should I add a fourth IM to my schedule I might be willing to give it a go. That said it'd need to be non-WTC so it was cheaper!

I have tended towards the less is more school of tapering of late. Certainly I wouldn't even consider more than 10 days for an Ironman, 7 seems fine. Roth last year is the nearest I got to not tapering still had a decent race.

I did a 5+ hour ride with lots of Ironman efforts about 6 days out from Taupo this time round. Worried it was a bit close, but to be honest I doubt it had much affect.

Taper/Recovery certainly costs me fitness when I string a lot of races close together.
_________________
Blog - Twitter - Coaching - Training Camp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chrisg




Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 675
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Measuring Fitness and Training Stress Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:

The Problem of Specificity

All training isn't equal of course, and CTL/ATL and TSB, is only relevant if the training is appropriate to your event, or specific as it's commonly known. If you look at my graph above and look at the high training load I had in June, you'd think I could've run a good strong 10km race. However, I couldn't, and if you look again just for running, you'll see why.



Jim,

I may mis-understand what you yhere, but how do you in the software select your training load just for running or cycling? It would be useful for me as during the year I go through cycles of lots of running and a bit of cycling or the opposite, so instead of showing accumulated trimp values would like to know if I am near a peak in performance in cycling or running.
_________________
London Team Pursuit Champion
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8067
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Measuring Fitness and Training Stress Reply with quote

chrisg wrote:
I may mis-understand what you yhere, but how do you in the software select your training load just for running or cycling? It would be useful for me as during the year I go through cycles of lots of running and a bit of cycling or the opposite, so instead of showing accumulated trimp values would like to know if I am near a peak in performance in cycling or running.


When you're on the training load page (or indeed any time), just go to the top and filter the exercise type by running or cycling (it'll by default say "My Activities", just change it to running or cycling, and you'll have TL filtered by just those activities.
_________________
Jibbering Sports Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8067
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a paper on an olympic 1500m runner with 7 years worth of data and how well modelling like this could work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19910822

Using Pace as the method of calculating stress - easy for workouts done mostly on the track!

A write up here:
http://sweatscience.com/?p=666
_________________
Jibbering Sports Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Russ C




Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice find.

I'd not encountered Mercier Scores before. Interesting idea, makes me wonder about doing something similar for triathlon. One frustrating aspect of trying to plan performance is I still don't have a great idea of what works best. Partly a sample size issue when you primarily race Ironman, there's only so many data points you can collect per year, but partly because of the subjectivity of rating your own race performance.

Good example from Ironman New Zealand recently - I though I was riding terrible in the second 45km section. Power data file points to me riding at a much higher average power over the period than the first. Perception and actual performance at odds.
_________________
Blog - Twitter - Coaching - Training Camp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
smaryka




Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to say I disagree with Jim that HR is a better measure of running than pace. I think if you do most of your running in similar conditions (same terrain mostly), then pace is much more useful than HR. It's all about handling your data consistently -- and let's face it, most runners have a small set of regular runs they do -- so if you can keep things consistent, you will find that using pace is a much better estimate of effort and fatigue.
_________________
http://smaryka.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
scratchy




Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 527

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim, Great post

I have a few questions:

1) How should I base my intensity factors? i.e. is 1 relative to anything?
2) Is there a correct intensity factor, or does it just have to be relative to other HR zones i.e. zone 2 is 1 and zone 4 is 2, or zone 2 is 2 and zone 4 is 4?
3) When I view the activities in TL, none of my activities have a training factor associated with them, its just blank, am I doing something wrong?
4) Is the aim to get a progressively higher TRIMP value over say a course of 4 weeks, and then allow fatigue to reduce and TSB to increase?
5) Is there a given rule for resting when you reach a certain negative TSB, or is this trial and error?
5) How do I manually enter activities that you talk about, and why should I be doing this?

Sorry for bombarding with questions, I just think this could be a great tool and I would love to get my head around it!

Regards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8067
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scratchy wrote:
1) How should I base my intensity factors? i.e. is 1 relative to anything?
2) Is there a correct intensity factor, or does it just have to be relative to other HR zones i.e. zone 2 is 1 and zone 4 is 2, or zone 2 is 2 and zone 4 is 4?


It doesn't really matter what the numbers are, it just changes the scale, most people try to make it so that 100 is equivalent to 1 hour at threshold, so (zone 4 factor)*60=100 and other zones based off of that. The curve should be such that you get progressively more trimp for each higher zone, You can see my zones in the original post, it's probably as good a place as any to start, there's also discussion on the ST forum thread about picking factors.

scratchy wrote:
3) When I view the activities in TL, none of my activities have a training factor associated with them, its just blank, am I doing something wrong?


Not sure what you mean by this question, do you mean in the TL settings, or in the output view, if the output view, it means your activities don't have HR, but in the settings maybe you have "single zone" ticked, or just have everything in one TL factors, that's fine although you may seperate out the different sports.

scratchy wrote:
4) Is the aim to get a progressively higher TRIMP value over say a course of 4 weeks, and then allow fatigue to reduce and TSB to increase?


Yes, it's normal to build fitness the CTL line progressively, and when you reach particularly negative TSB to lighten the workload to allow it to drop, before increasing it again. Either by a specific rest week simply to rest or for a race or test period.

scratchy wrote:
5) Is there a given rule for resting when you reach a certain negative TSB, or is this trial and error?


Only you can know, it'll be highly variable I'm afraid. An ATL 50% higher than CTL is a large fatigue hole though, so I'd be very careful until you can prove that's doable. Of course once your CTL reaches 100/d then it's actually really, really tough to maintain large negative TSB's anyway because your daily fitness is already so high.

scratchy wrote:
5) How do I manually enter activities that you talk about, and why should I be doing this?


It's for when you don't have HR, but do have activities which contribute to the fitness. Perhaps a commute where you don't bother with the HR monitor everyday, but know it's generally 45 minutes at an easy pace so can put down a trimp of 40 or something.
_________________
Jibbering Sports Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.