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The sub-20 minute 5k run thread?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
I'm pretty sure a different Parkrun will bring a sub 20. But to me that's not the point its about progress, once I have gone sub20 for MY Parkrun I can start looking for the faster courses. But at this stage it will feel like cheating.

As for finding an unofficial pacer yeah that was going to be my strategy. My rather aging Garmin (305) doesn't have quite give the necessary feedback, especially under trees and such.

Last time Out I noticed a girl runner was up near the front and when the horn went, she was like me off like a bullet, about 500m in she suddenly slowed drastically, I obviously dropped her, to try and hang on to the fast group. The thought went through my head she probably knew what she was doing and maybe I should match her pace. but as I said, at this stage it really didn't FEEL hard.

Mile 2ish as my body was failing and my run falling a part, she predictably came sailing past, and yes checking the results she was sub20. So clearly this theory is sound.

Think I will find another runner to stalk as intentionally stalking a young woman round the course may be a bit ...creepy Laughing


and that is my concern...this quest for an arbitrary time when you form is deteriorating...why not build up your form to de risk the process...it may take a little longer to reach a specific target, but you are less likely to injure yourself and more likely to complete longer periods of uninterrupted training...
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get what you are saying, but I feel my form and fitness is perfectly capable of hitting this arbitrary time. I have built up slow, targeting anything BUT 5k speed work, and noticed that even doing longer runs my speeds were coming up to a level where I could possibly finally break this barrier. I have been trying to get under it for 4/5 years!

But as I have always focused on longer distance events its never been a serious target. Something I have a go at when it is unlikely to impact my real training. My previous PB was set the week after London marathon as I refused to do a fast 5k BEFORE the mara as I was worried about the impact.

I honestly think its a matter of pacing, if I nail a perfectly paced 5k and its over 20 I will be happy and carry on IM training. As it stands my PB was anything but perfectly paced. (20.3Cool
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pacing thing...I find it such a hard thing to do. Invariably, 5k or 10k, my fastest splits are km 1,2 and the last one. I always think i need to slow the first two and build into it..but never manage it.
The thing is, my last 10k race, i did the same, and came 12th in 38.10. Turns out though... looking at the 11 guys ahead of me... with the winner clocking 33mins... they all seemed to do the same, with their first lap of 3 being quickest...


Last edited by twhat on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

twhat wrote:
The pacing thing...I find it such a hard thing to do. Invariably, 5k or 10k, my fastest splits are km 1,2 and the last one. I always think i need to slow the first two and build into it..but never manage it.
The thing is, my last 10k race, i did the same, and came 12th in 38.10. Turns out though... looking at the 11 guys ahead of me... with the winner clocking 33mins... they all did the same....


I have my first standalone 10k this Sunday since September. Using it as a pacing test before the London Triathlon at the end of July. I have no idea what pace to start off at but I've been running 400/800m interval sets at 3.55m/km so I reckon start at 4.15 and see how it goes.
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twhat




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds sensible ... if a little conservative but it depends on your amount of interval reps vs recovery time times etc.
I'm probably not the guy to listen to regarding 'conservative starts to races' given my last post though


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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
I get what you are saying, but I feel my form and fitness is perfectly capable of hitting this arbitrary time. I have built up slow, targeting anything BUT 5k speed work, and noticed that even doing longer runs my speeds were coming up to a level where I could possibly finally break this barrier. I have been trying to get under it for 4/5 years!

But as I have always focused on longer distance events its never been a serious target. Something I have a go at when it is unlikely to impact my real training. My previous PB was set the week after London marathon as I refused to do a fast 5k BEFORE the mara as I was worried about the impact.

I honestly think its a matter of pacing, if I nail a perfectly paced 5k and its over 20 I will be happy and carry on IM training. As it stands my PB was anything but perfectly paced. (20.3Cool


You confused me by saying that your body was failing and run falling apart...I tend to read what people write...

4 or 5 years should be enough to get under 20 depending on your start point, of course, but if you haven't improved by 10% in that time I'd seriously be evaluating the training programme
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14810
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jgav wrote:
twhat wrote:
The pacing thing...I find it such a hard thing to do. Invariably, 5k or 10k, my fastest splits are km 1,2 and the last one. I always think i need to slow the first two and build into it..but never manage it.
The thing is, my last 10k race, i did the same, and came 12th in 38.10. Turns out though... looking at the 11 guys ahead of me... with the winner clocking 33mins... they all did the same....


I have my first standalone 10k this Sunday since September. Using it as a pacing test before the London Triathlon at the end of July. I have no idea what pace to start off at but I've been running 400/800m interval sets at 3.55m/km so I reckon start at 4.15 and see how it goes.


Are you going to cycle to the start?
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 863
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SGreg wrote:
I get what you are saying, but I feel my form and fitness is perfectly capable of hitting this arbitrary time. I have built up slow, targeting anything BUT 5k speed work, and noticed that even doing longer runs my speeds were coming up to a level where I could possibly finally break this barrier. I have been trying to get under it for 4/5 years!

But as I have always focused on longer distance events its never been a serious target. Something I have a go at when it is unlikely to impact my real training. My previous PB was set the week after London marathon as I refused to do a fast 5k BEFORE the mara as I was worried about the impact.

I honestly think its a matter of pacing, if I nail a perfectly paced 5k and its over 20 I will be happy and carry on IM training. As it stands my PB was anything but perfectly paced. (20.3Cool


You confused me by saying that your body was failing and run falling apart...I tend to read what people write...

4 or 5 years should be enough to get under 20 depending on your start point, of course, but if you haven't improved by 10% in that time I'd seriously be evaluating the training programme


I thought from the very off I had made it clear Pacing was my issue?



SGreg wrote:
My problem is pacing


Well my training has been very broken (by choice) so that probably explains the lack of gains, but my start point was a 1:17 10k (my first timed race) so I've more than made a 10% gain.


I'm sure my training programme is very ill suited to 5k racing as it's mainly a long distance triathlon programme. But I've been making steady gains this year, and IF I can Nail the pacing I'm sure 20mins will fall.

I have run 6 timed 5k's in my whole life to give you some idea how seriously I have been targeting this "goal"
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SGreg wrote:
I get what you are saying, but I feel my form and fitness is perfectly capable of hitting this arbitrary time. I have built up slow, targeting anything BUT 5k speed work, and noticed that even doing longer runs my speeds were coming up to a level where I could possibly finally break this barrier. I have been trying to get under it for 4/5 years!

But as I have always focused on longer distance events its never been a serious target. Something I have a go at when it is unlikely to impact my real training. My previous PB was set the week after London marathon as I refused to do a fast 5k BEFORE the mara as I was worried about the impact.

I honestly think its a matter of pacing, if I nail a perfectly paced 5k and its over 20 I will be happy and carry on IM training. As it stands my PB was anything but perfectly paced. (20.3Cool


You confused me by saying that your body was failing and run falling apart...I tend to read what people write...

4 or 5 years should be enough to get under 20 depending on your start point, of course, but if you haven't improved by 10% in that time I'd seriously be evaluating the training programme


I thought from the very off I had made it clear Pacing was my issue?



SGreg wrote:
My problem is pacing


Well my training has been very broken (by choice) so that probably explains the lack of gains, but my start point was a 1:17 10k (my first timed race) so I've more than made a 10% gain.


I'm sure my training programme is very ill suited to 5k racing as it's mainly a long distance triathlon programme. But I've been making steady gains this year, and IF I can Nail the pacing I'm sure 20mins will fall.

I have run 6 timed 5k's in my whole life to give you some idea how seriously I have been targeting this "goal"


over 3 miles, unless you really, really nailed the first mile - and to pluck a couple of numbers out of thin air..ie a 5 min first mile followed by a couple of 8s, which is a serious pacing issue; then you should be able to hold form a half minute either side of your preferred pace...so 6:15 + 2 x 6:45s....
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

over 3 miles, unless you really, really nailed the first mile - and to pluck a couple of numbers out of thin air..ie a 5 min first mile followed by a couple of 8s, which is a serious pacing issue; then you should be able to hold form a half minute either side of your preferred pace...so 6:15 + 2 x 6:45s....


Now your getting it,

My last attempt:

5.55
6:45
7:13

So it really is a case of just reigning in that first mile a bit then as you say I "should" be able to hold for the other 2 miles...probably.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
explorerJC wrote:

over 3 miles, unless you really, really nailed the first mile - and to pluck a couple of numbers out of thin air..ie a 5 min first mile followed by a couple of 8s, which is a serious pacing issue; then you should be able to hold form a half minute either side of your preferred pace...so 6:15 + 2 x 6:45s....


Now your getting it,

My last attempt:

5.55
6:45
7:13

So it really is a case of just reigning in that first mile a bit then as you say I "should" be able to hold for the other 2 miles...probably.


even then, you should be able to hold your form...although i stand corrected...that IS a serious pacing issue Smile
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't even really fully explain the pacing issue either, the first 0.5 of a mile was more like 5:15.

It was less a form issue and more a HR/Breathing issue I was so far over what was sustainable for me. But as I said the first mile didn't feel all that hard at the time, it was only during the second mile that the effort really began taking its toll, and then repeated reductions in pace/effort were not enough to counter it!


The odd thing is I was fully aware of this issue before hand and kept telling myself to sloooowwww down, but it made no difference.

Anyway I'm currently stalking the field, see if I can find an unwitting pacer to get me round that first mile, and see how we go. That attempt was a few weeks ago and my fitness has improved since then as well.
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twhat




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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turns out appropriate pacing is well worth it.. I ran parkrun on saturday with everything pointing to an 18.10-18.20 time. This from recent 10k time (where i went off too fast) more than anything but i generally have a decent idea of where i'm at.
The presence of a former GB level guy on the start line didnt help and everyone shot off quick but by 400m i managed to rein it in a bit. I was aiming for 3.40/k but had a group form behind me who seemed happy for me to pace them so they kinda pushed me along a bit quicker...km splits were 3.36,3.35,3.37,3.35 and 3.25 for a new pb of 17.55. That was good enough for 3rd (GB guy 15minutes dead Shocked ) with 2nd 40 secs ahead of me. All of the group fell away in that searing final km Smile

So a bit of a bragging post from me but a very satisfying runout... and i think i finally proved (to myself at least) the benefits of proper pacing...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

twhat wrote:
Turns out appropriate pacing is well worth it.. I ran parkrun on saturday with everything pointing to an 18.10-18.20 time. This from recent 10k time (where i went off too fast) more than anything but i generally have a decent idea of where i'm at.
The presence of a former GB level guy on the start line didnt help and everyone shot off quick but by 400m i managed to rein it in a bit. I was aiming for 3.40/k but had a group form behind me who seemed happy for me to pace them so they kinda pushed me along a bit quicker...km splits were 3.36,3.35,3.37,3.35 and 3.25 for a new pb of 17.55. That was good enough for 3rd (GB guy 15minutes dead Shocked ) with 2nd 40 secs ahead of me. All of the group fell away in that searing final km Smile

So a bit of a bragging post from me but a very satisfying runout... and i think i finally proved (to myself at least) the benefits of proper pacing...


Chapeau!
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've run a couple of 19s off the bike this season. The way I train to gain speed is to run 3, then 4 then 5 km at the goal pace (off the bike in my case when I'm training). Simple progression of distance; just keep holding-on for longer.

I 'bandited' our local PR last weekend as I switched to a Saturday long run and it's on my usual route where I stash a bottle and do some laps; I kept wanting to tell anyone who overtook me that I'd already 22km Rolling Eyes My splits may have sped-up a little at one point Very Happy
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