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The Award Winning Thread - Sub 10 IM Plan
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16414
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: IM Sub10 for an old Reply with quote

surf22 wrote:

Wow... 4 session/week ! During last training in winter usually i trained 2 times/week on Turbo + 1 long ride (4h). From April i ride on the street (flat) 2 times very early in the morning (with 5.59 club's friend) + a long ride during we. Not enough ?

I'm very light (Just 60 kg) and I think my biggest limit on the bike is the little powere specially in hilly trails


It sounds like your post-winter long rides are too easy; a combination of flat rides with a slower person isn't going to give you the returns you're looking for to get a faster bike split. If you just want to enjoy cycling though, that's fair enough Smile Do you use a Power meter/HRM? You don't need to bike more hours per week, just more intensity in those 8h a week.

Being light should be an advantage on the hills, and depending on your bike, equipment & position, you could (possibly) save 5-10 min there if it isn't currently optimised.
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surf22




Joined: 09 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: IM Sub10 for an old Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
surf22 wrote:

Wow... 4 session/week ! During last training in winter usually i trained 2 times/week on Turbo + 1 long ride (4h). From April i ride on the street (flat) 2 times very early in the morning (with 5.59 club's friend) + a long ride during we. Not enough ?

I'm very light (Just 60 kg) and I think my biggest limit on the bike is the little powere specially in hilly trails


It sounds like your post-winter long rides are too easy; a combination of flat rides with a slower person isn't going to give you the returns you're looking for to get a faster bike split. If you just want to enjoy cycling though, that's fair enough Smile

Do you use a Power meter/HRM? --> No I don't have a Power meter and i'm using my HRM rarely

You don't need to bike more hours per week, just more intensity in those 8h a week.

Being light should be an advantage on the hills, and depending on your bike, equipment & position, you could (possibly) save 5-10 min there if it isn't currently optimised.


I've a TT Bike from last year, and i'm training using TT often, but on Turbo i'm using a road bike
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surf22




Joined: 09 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: IM Sub10 for an old Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
surf22 wrote:

Wow... 4 session/week ! During last training in winter usually i trained 2 times/week on Turbo + 1 long ride (4h). From April i ride on the street (flat) 2 times very early in the morning (with 5.59 club's friend) + a long ride during we. Not enough ?

I'm very light (Just 60 kg) and I think my biggest limit on the bike is the little powere specially in hilly trails


It sounds like your post-winter long rides are too easy; a combination of flat rides with a slower person isn't going to give you the returns you're looking for to get a faster bike split. If you just want to enjoy cycling though, that's fair enough Smile Do you use a Power meter/HRM? You don't need to bike more hours per week, just more intensity in those 8h a week.

Being light should be an advantage on the hills, and depending on your bike, equipment & position, you could (possibly) save 5-10 min there if it isn't currently optimised.



During the long bike rides it is advisable to have overall climbs higher than D+1.500/D+2.000 or is it better to keep hilly routes at a high pace?
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16414
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: IM Sub10 for an old Reply with quote

surf22 wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
surf22 wrote:

Wow... 4 session/week ! During last training in winter usually i trained 2 times/week on Turbo + 1 long ride (4h). From April i ride on the street (flat) 2 times very early in the morning (with 5.59 club's friend) + a long ride during we. Not enough ?

I'm very light (Just 60 kg) and I think my biggest limit on the bike is the little powere specially in hilly trails


It sounds like your post-winter long rides are too easy; a combination of flat rides with a slower person isn't going to give you the returns you're looking for to get a faster bike split. If you just want to enjoy cycling though, that's fair enough Smile Do you use a Power meter/HRM? You don't need to bike more hours per week, just more intensity in those 8h a week.

Being light should be an advantage on the hills, and depending on your bike, equipment & position, you could (possibly) save 5-10 min there if it isn't currently optimised.



During the long bike rides it is advisable to have overall climbs higher than D+1.500/D+2.000 or is it better to keep hilly routes at a high pace?


Are you German by chance? dann koennen wir auf deutsch reden Laughing I ask because I'm not sure if you're talking about climbing metres on a ride (where 1.500 is German for 1500m) or another metric?

I think it would be useful for you to use your HRM more often, if that's all you have, and to aim to increase the % of Z3 in your rides. Z3 on a bike is not an easy pace if you're historically a runner as we are. Hills should get you easily into Z3 and Zone 4 on steeper ascents. In other words, don't avoid hills, embrace them as they force you to work harder, and are normally followed by some recovery on a down hill. If you are still easily able to work at Z3/4 late in your 4h rides, then this will help with your 'late power' in an Ironman.

Other than using Strava segments (or at least timing set routes), it's difficult to identify your progress versus workload if you don't at least use a HRM or Power Meter consistently to compare each session. For example, if you want to improve your performance for a given workload, then you have to work harder on your rides, before they get easier. Simple example you can use:

4h or 120km ride that has 1000m climbing. You average 30kph with an average HR of 125bpm and that is broken down as 20% Z1, 60% Z2, 15% Z3, 5% Z4. You need to aim to ride that with a greater % of Z3 next time around. Obviously speed is weather dependent, so it's not a particularly good way to monitor training consistently. But over time, if you get stronger on the bike, you will ride 120km at 30kph with a lower average HR, or a greater speed for the same HR. I hope I am not teaching you to 'suck eggs' because you are already a very good standard for your age Smile

Basically, you need some metrics to compare, and improve upon in your rides.
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surf22




Joined: 09 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: IM Sub10 for an old Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
surf22 wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
surf22 wrote:

Wow... 4 session/week ! During last training in winter usually i trained 2 times/week on Turbo + 1 long ride (4h). From April i ride on the street (flat) 2 times very early in the morning (with 5.59 club's friend) + a long ride during we. Not enough ?

I'm very light (Just 60 kg) and I think my biggest limit on the bike is the little powere specially in hilly trails


It sounds like your post-winter long rides are too easy; a combination of flat rides with a slower person isn't going to give you the returns you're looking for to get a faster bike split. If you just want to enjoy cycling though, that's fair enough Smile Do you use a Power meter/HRM? You don't need to bike more hours per week, just more intensity in those 8h a week.

Being light should be an advantage on the hills, and depending on your bike, equipment & position, you could (possibly) save 5-10 min there if it isn't currently optimised.



During the long bike rides it is advisable to have overall climbs higher than D+1.500/D+2.000 or is it better to keep hilly routes at a high pace?


Are you German by chance? dann koennen wir auf deutsch reden Laughing I ask because I'm not sure if you're talking about climbing metres on a ride (where 1.500 is German for 1500m) or another metric?

I think it would be useful for you to use your HRM more often, if that's all you have, and to aim to increase the % of Z3 in your rides. Z3 on a bike is not an easy pace if you're historically a runner as we are. Hills should get you easily into Z3 and Zone 4 on steeper ascents. In other words, don't avoid hills, embrace them as they force you to work harder, and are normally followed by some recovery on a down hill. If you are still easily able to work at Z3/4 late in your 4h rides, then this will help with your 'late power' in an Ironman.

Other than using Strava segments (or at least timing set routes), it's difficult to identify your progress versus workload if you don't at least use a HRM or Power Meter consistently to compare each session. For example, if you want to improve your performance for a given workload, then you have to work harder on your rides, before they get easier. Simple example you can use:

4h or 120km ride that has 1000m climbing. You average 30kph with an average HR of 125bpm and that is broken down as 20% Z1, 60% Z2, 15% Z3, 5% Z4. You need to aim to ride that with a greater % of Z3 next time around. Obviously speed is weather dependent, so it's not a particularly good way to monitor training consistently. But over time, if you get stronger on the bike, you will ride 120km at 30kph with a lower average HR, or a greater speed for the same HR. I hope I am not teaching you to 'suck eggs' because you are already a very good standard for your age Smile

Basically, you need some metrics to compare, and improve upon in your rides.


Smile)))))))))) no i'm an Italian naif triathlete.... i hate to many data to monitor.... (i know.... I should have to monitor it....).
I'm asking you because i'm never stop learning (or trying to...) especially when we are talking about bike...

Yes, when we said D+1.500 we ride on a tour with 1500 meters total climbing.
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 1042
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been mentioned the bike needs some improvement, I suspect there isn't as much of a time trial scene in Italy but TT's or time spent around your 70.3 pace should bring you on.

If you've only got your TT bike last year some more practice on that and maybe check your setup, e.g. position, helmet.

Also depends on your bike setup, deep wheels etc.?

Quality tyres, skinsuit and aero socks can all add up over 112 miles and aren't particularly expensive.

A quick bit of maths suggests you might find a few minutes in transition as well.

Jeff
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 263
Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure if the number of meters climbed is that important: a 1000m climb over 10km is a completely different prospect to 1000m average ascent over 80km. 1500m on a tour sounds like a reasonably hilly ride

Try to cycle with people who are faster than you

One of the benefits of living in Switzerland is the opportunity to ride with Pro's and ex-pro's. It has been a revelation how much structure they put into riding, even if it is a social club ride, during the warm up phase, around 15km, we ride in pairs and have a chat, however, after that it is all effort and no talking

Riding in a fast chain gang gives short spikes in HR followed by a recovery period (It is amazing how fast you can cover ground in a well structured chain gang) - however, it is great training for getting into a good rhythm, as you can't let off the pace, even for a second, or you get dropped

1000m+ climbs are typically done deep into zone 4+. Since starting with this group, according to Training Peaks, my best 60min avg HR has increased from 158bpm to 172bpm (max is 190).

I do use a power meter, but find HR more useful
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:

1000m+ climbs


Sadly you'd have to do hill reps for that in this country. What's the 'biggest' climb in the UK, the Bealach-Na-Ba Pass to Applecross? Which is remote to say the least Rolling Eyes
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: salisbury

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
mattsurf wrote:

1000m+ climbs


Sadly you'd have to do hill reps for that in this country. What's the 'biggest' climb in the UK, the Bealach-Na-Ba Pass to Applecross? Which is remote to say the least Rolling Eyes


Probably the only place you can do this in the UK is on a Turbo Trainer

One of the nicer bits about living in Switzerland, or any other mountainous region
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surf22




Joined: 09 Nov 2017
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:
As has been mentioned the bike needs some improvement, I suspect there isn't as much of a time trial scene in Italy but TT's or time spent around your 70.3 pace should bring you on.

If you've only got your TT bike last year some more practice on that and maybe check your setup, e.g. position, helmet.

Also depends on your bike setup, deep wheels etc.?

Quality tyres, skinsuit and aero socks can all add up over 112 miles and aren't particularly expensive.

A quick bit of maths suggests you might find a few minutes in transition as well.

Jeff


Road Helmet, no crono (in the past i've used Spiuk too hot, no air), 66 deep wheels.
Triathlon body (upper and lower part separated) for possible physiological needs.
In the bike I wear a cyclist's jersey in T1 to have big pockets to put the 5 bars and 2 sandwiches that I eat in the race.

Embarassed Embarassed
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surf22




Joined: 09 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
I am not sure if the number of meters climbed is that important: a 1000m climb over 10km is a completely different prospect to 1000m average ascent over 80km. 1500m on a tour sounds like a reasonably hilly ride

Try to cycle with people who are faster than you

One of the benefits of living in Switzerland is the opportunity to ride with Pro's and ex-pro's. It has been a revelation how much structure they put into riding, even if it is a social club ride, during the warm up phase, around 15km, we ride in pairs and have a chat, however, after that it is all effort and no talking

Riding in a fast chain gang gives short spikes in HR followed by a recovery period (It is amazing how fast you can cover ground in a well structured chain gang) - however, it is great training for getting into a good rhythm, as you can't let off the pace, even for a second, or you get dropped

1000m+ climbs are typically done deep into zone 4+. Since starting with this group, according to Training Peaks, my best 60min avg HR has increased from 158bpm to 172bpm (max is 190).

I do use a power meter, but find HR more useful


I'm asking you because i think 1500m on a 150 km tour sounds like a reasonably hilly ride, especially if i're going to Roth, Klag or Frankfurt.
But my triathlete friends always want to make greater differences in height, over 2500 meters, with climbs of up to an hour with slopes of 10%. Obviously making these routes with the TT bike becomes very challenging and personally I don't think it is useful. Am I wrong?
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16414
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

surf22 wrote:

I'm asking you because i think 1500m on a 150 km tour sounds like a reasonably hilly ride, especially if i're going to Roth, Klag or Frankfurt.
But my triathlete friends always want to make greater differences in height, over 2500 meters, with climbs of up to an hour with slopes of 10%. Obviously making these routes with the TT bike becomes very challenging and personally I don't think it is useful. Am I wrong?


Train hard, fight easy.

The training sessions we need to do are very often the ones we would rather avoid. If you can do long rides with over 2000m climbing, then imagine how much easier the Rupertiberg or Kalvarienberg will be on race day when you ride them twice (and how much fresher you will be for the run). If we want to improve, then we have to stretch ourselves in training and then rest/recover to allow the 'supercompensation' to take place.

I've only ever won one triathlon, and I had to wait until I was 42 when I did it. It's a very hilly race, so I spent the month before doing silly amounts of hill repeats on the bike & run; it was boring and hard, but it worked Smile
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

surf22 wrote:

I'm asking you because i think 1500m on a 150 km tour sounds like a reasonably hilly ride, especially if i're going to Roth, Klag or Frankfurt.
But my triathlete friends always want to make greater differences in height, over 2500 meters, with climbs of up to an hour with slopes of 10%. Obviously making these routes with the TT bike becomes very challenging and personally I don't think it is useful. Am I wrong?


At this time of year I do no training on my TT bike. I am completely with your triathlete friends, I love those hour long 10% climbs on my road bike, I think that this is one of the best opportunities to do a consistent sustained effort on a bike. A TT bike would a little more challenging, but would help build your mental strength.

On both my road bike and TT bike I use a 52/36 chainset and 11-28 cassette, which I find is good up to 12%, 13% and beyond is possible but a bit of a grind
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I much prefer cycling on a road bike; the fact that I have a new one really helps with wanting to go out and ride! Nice carbon endurance bike with 28mm tyres & disc brakes, plus Canyon's leaf sprung seat post make for a comfortable ride.

Basically with a road bike, you can sit-up more and enjoy the view Smile
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surf22




Joined: 09 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I much prefer cycling on a road bike; the fact that I have a new one really helps with wanting to go out and ride! Nice carbon endurance bike with 28mm tyres & disc brakes, plus Canyon's leaf sprung seat post make for a comfortable ride.

Basically with a road bike, you can sit-up more and enjoy the view Smile


For sure ! I've used my TT bike the first time last saturday (on a flat 100 km trip) since Roth
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