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How bad at swimming am I?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1823

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
On the SCM/LCM and OW swimming thing. Yes, if your turns are good, you're hopefully swimming <20m a length in SCM, hence the fast times!

Definitely part of it. But what I've found over the last few weeks, and as hinted at in the race summary above from Deva, is that I was massively over-extending early in OW. When I actually took a step back and thought about how I approach a long swim in a pool, versus how it was feeling in OW, I was getting massively carried away as soon as I got in a lake. And I had no pace clock to identify that and reign things in. When I over-exert in swimming, my pace falls off a cliff after a certain point.

I've made a conscious effort to hold back since, and it is reaping rewards. I was away this weekend, so no long swim, but last Sunday I did 6*750m laps at London docks. I deliberately started slow, with my first lap being more of a cruise, and then knocked out 5 more laps within a 13s window (I was hitting lap on the Garmin at the final turn buoy each time). I was under 1:15 for 4.5k, and went through 3.8 in 1:02, including the gentler first lap. I would deal on that right now for my IM.

Strava segments in OW swimming are inherently unreliable due to the GPS inaccuracies, but they're broadly representative with one another. And on that basis, there's a fairly clear upward trend both over time, and much more recently.


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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i remember being told by a swim coach to swim a 1500m tt, and then to go back and swim a more leisurely 1500m a few days later where i could really think about form and technique. He told me to expect to be surprised by the results and indeed the second one was quicker, as well as more comfortable.
I guess proper pacing has the same effect across any endurance sport but the difference seems to be that 'correct' pacing in the swim seems to result in similar/slightly better performance outcomes but for less effort/energy expenditure.
Or something. Confused

EDIt : Actually, to put it another way... I think you can try to take it really easy but its actually very hard to swim 'too slowly' whilst doing front crawl.
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the High Performance juniros I coahc i deliberatly practice hard starts and settling. Every race is like this at that level so rather than consciously going easier, we practice recovering at "threshold" after that 200m flat out start. Another thing is within each rep throw in a really hard length, this simulates the sprint out of turns etc or bridging a gap.

good set for this is say 8*200 off 3mins, holding 2:30's (adjust to your times!) All at ~8/10 or 20BBM or threshold pace ...... except 1) 100 hard 2) first 25 hard , 3) 3rd 25 hard 4) 5th 25 hard 5) 7th 25 hard 6) 5th 25 hard 7) 3rd 25 hard Cool 1st 25 hard
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
With the High Performance juniros I coahc i deliberatly practice hard starts and settling. Every race is like this at that level so rather than consciously going easier, we practice recovering at "threshold" after that 200m flat out start. Another thing is within each rep throw in a really hard length, this simulates the sprint out of turns etc or bridging a gap.

good set for this is say 8*200 off 3mins, holding 2:30's (adjust to your times!) All at ~8/10 or 20BBM or threshold pace ...... except 1) 100 hard 2) first 25 hard , 3) 3rd 25 hard 4) 5th 25 hard 5) 7th 25 hard 6) 5th 25 hard 7) 3rd 25 hard Cool 1st 25 hard


I wont get complicated with all the timing adjustments, It would be easier for me to use this set but just adjust the 200s to 100s. Thanks.
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

twhat wrote:
hammerer wrote:
With the High Performance juniros I coahc i deliberatly practice hard starts and settling. Every race is like this at that level so rather than consciously going easier, we practice recovering at "threshold" after that 200m flat out start. Another thing is within each rep throw in a really hard length, this simulates the sprint out of turns etc or bridging a gap.

good set for this is say 8*200 off 3mins, holding 2:30's (adjust to your times!) All at ~8/10 or 20BBM or threshold pace ...... except 1) 100 hard 2) first 25 hard , 3) 3rd 25 hard 4) 5th 25 hard 5) 7th 25 hard 6) 5th 25 hard 7) 3rd 25 hard Cool 1st 25 hard


I wont get complicated with all the timing adjustments, It would be easier for me to use this set but just adjust the 200s to 100s. Thanks.


just take around 30seconds rest. As long as the heart rate doesnt drop to resting levels then you are building fitness. might be worth taking longer rest to make sure you hit the next rep with good form and holding speed than to go in sloppy and tired also.
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really had swimming injuries before so this might be common - discomfort centrally high up on the back. Not quite as high as the shoulder blades. Feels like tendons rather than muscle, if that makes sense.

Remedy? Swim easy? Reduce volume?
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we go again Laughing

I'm back in the pool. Only doing very short sessions at the moment to get used to the water and dodge the allergies.

Been 3 times in 10 days and each time started with an easy 400 wu, all coming in on 7:00, today was pleasing as the lengths were pretty even splits rather than my usual boom and bust swims.

Problem - I have a fairly long glide with a dead-spot at the end so I'm trying to eliminate it and speed up the stroke a little. My problem is that when I turn my arms over faster I lose around 4 sec/100m for the same effort than when I overglide.

What drills will help me eliminate the deadspot and actually speed up?
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
Here we go again Laughing

I'm back in the pool. Only doing very short sessions at the moment to get used to the water and dodge the allergies.

Been 3 times in 10 days and each time started with an easy 400 wu, all coming in on 7:00, today was pleasing as the lengths were pretty even splits rather than my usual boom and bust swims.

Problem - I have a fairly long glide with a dead-spot at the end so I'm trying to eliminate it and speed up the stroke a little. My problem is that when I turn my arms over faster I lose around 4 sec/100m for the same effort than when I overglide.

What drills will help me eliminate the deadspot and actually speed up?


I have the opposite issue my turnover is too fast, with an inefficientr glifde: There are 2 main teching progams, total immersion technique focuses on a strong glide while swim smooth seems to focus on fast turnover.

Would be interested in other people's view, however, I think that you either go with "slide and glide" or "fast turnover" , all the drills seem to be totally different

I am really focusing on improving my glide, I was at 21 strokes per length, now at 17, I find that below 17 has a big impact on pace... but the good swimmers in my group are at 13 or 14 strokes per length
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
PCP wrote:
Here we go again Laughing

I'm back in the pool. Only doing very short sessions at the moment to get used to the water and dodge the allergies.

Been 3 times in 10 days and each time started with an easy 400 wu, all coming in on 7:00, today was pleasing as the lengths were pretty even splits rather than my usual boom and bust swims.

Problem - I have a fairly long glide with a dead-spot at the end so I'm trying to eliminate it and speed up the stroke a little. My problem is that when I turn my arms over faster I lose around 4 sec/100m for the same effort than when I overglide.

What drills will help me eliminate the deadspot and actually speed up?


I have the opposite issue my turnover is too fast, with an inefficientr glifde: There are 2 main teching progams, total immersion technique focuses on a strong glide while swim smooth seems to focus on fast turnover.

Would be interested in other people's view, however, I think that you either go with "slide and glide" or "fast turnover" , all the drills seem to be totally different

I am really focusing on improving my glide, I was at 21 strokes per length, now at 17, I find that below 17 has a big impact on pace... but the good swimmers in my group are at 13 or 14 strokes per length


Iíve been stroke counting, 23 before now 21. I can do 17, but itís not sustainable and takes me way below CSS.
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Iron Ď17 16h11, '16 14h30
Half Iron Ď18 DNF, '17 7h39, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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hammerer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont glide. The arms should be continuously moving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvinmJg0ykQ

You should drop stroke rate for a bit though. Use the tempo trainer and do slow stroke rate (no glide jsut move arms slower), 45SPM. Really feel the catch. Use a pull buoy and count SPL and times over 100's. This will build strngth and you ability to knwo what is happenening. Also as you get faster you'll know its because of technical improvements. This is part of a program to develop though.

The minimum Stroke Rate I believe most should be aiming for is 70SPM. Look at any decent swimmer and the higher they are generally the faster they go. Do not do it at the cost of your stroke which is what happens. people up stroke rate, dont catch the water properly and end up slower and more tired so maybe spend next 8 weeks on low SR slowly building it up. Do 45SPM get your counts.....then 50 until you are doing same SPL then 55 etc until the 17 strokes per length at 45 SPM turns into 17 SPL at 70 SPM. Hit that and you'll be sub 5:30 for 400!
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to swimming regularly. For me that means 2 evening sessions that are an hour long and a masters session. Although I am mixing it up, it is generally 1 aerobic session based on the swim smooth red mist sets. The other is faster paced usually 50m or 100m based sets. The masters session is a mixed bag of chasing feet for an hour. There are some fast triathletes in my lane and I might even learn to do strokes other than freestyle.
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something clicked yesterday. I started my my catch a fraction earlier and had more of a constant motion in my stroke. Better timing, I suppose.

Anyway, I was doing my easy/steady 100's off 2 mins still but coming in on 1:35/36 instead or 1:40/42.

Stroke rate on my watch saying 26 spm but I'm assuming this doesn't factor in kicking off wall 4 times. Also was 17/18 spl with the new stroke. I hadn't really counted before.
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to swimming regularly, 400m in 8.20 and 200m in 2.15 (fatiguing) spotted my post from June where I was swimming 200s in 3.40 what a decline.

I know I need regular sessions to make any kind of progress. Wish I could make a masters session work but the timings of the clubs near me are tricky to get to.
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jgav wrote:
Back to swimming regularly, 400m in 8.20 and 200m in 2.15 (fatiguing) spotted my post from June where I was swimming 200s in 3.40 what a decline.

I know I need regular sessions to make any kind of progress. Wish I could make a masters session work but the timings of the clubs near me are tricky to get to.


I don't get it.

Assuming the 200m time of 2:15 should read 4:15 (given you said decline from 3:40)
That means you swam faster for the 400 than the 200.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
Jgav wrote:
Back to swimming regularly, 400m in 8.20 and 200m in 2.15 (fatiguing) spotted my post from June where I was swimming 200s in 3.40 what a decline.

I know I need regular sessions to make any kind of progress. Wish I could make a masters session work but the timings of the clubs near me are tricky to get to.


I don't get it.

Assuming the 200m time of 2:15 should read 4:15 (given you said decline from 3:40)
That means you swam faster for the 400 than the 200.
Guessing it's a typo and should have been 4:15
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