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How bad at swimming am I?
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My times from Arundel and Rotterdam were slightly quicker than yours, yet my pool times are nowhere near. And I've never done a 1.9K in sub-30, although I think all my 1.9K swims have been in the sea with a variety of swells. I did get good feet on both swims, and I'm sure a wetsuit does me a lot of favours, but I would have thought it is your times that are slow rather than mine that are fast.

Does anyone know what the usual pace curve is across 400 - 750 - 1500 - 1900 - 3800? How much would you expect to slow down?
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 220
Location: Worcester, UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've pretty much given up trying to make any comparisons between pool pace and open water pace as there just seem to be too many variables.

I know I'm approx. 1min slower without a wetsuit around a 450m loop but my Garmin (910xt or Fenix2) can read anything between 400 and 500+ for the same circuit. (My sighting isn't that bad!)

My pool pace would be broadly similar to my OW skins pace but only if I assume the 450m loop, not taking the distance/pace from my Garmin for OW.

I noticed someone quoted a pool PB in a 20m pool but then you've got the issue of whether turns are a benefit or hindrance and the shorter the pool the more turns to exaggerate this effect. If you're pool times are improving maybe you're turning quicker of pushing off faster which wouldn't translate to OW.
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 220
Location: Worcester, UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NoTriBri wrote:
PB for a 10K swim yesterday. It was advertised as 12K but my Garmin and others measured it as 10.4 to 10.6. Manged to complete it in 1:31:24. Was just over 6 minutes behind the first swimmer.

It was easier than cycling downhill. Wye Wild Swim down the River Wye almost to Symonds Yat. Lets just say the current was brisk.


I did a (very much social) swim a bit further up the Wye the same day. 5 miles in 90mins including a couple of stops and some very shallow sections that you just had to glide along. Brisk is a good word, I tried swimming back against it a couple of times and it was hard work standing still.


Last edited by JaRok2300 on Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 minute over 450m sounds like a lot of wetsuit benefit. I don't have any datapoints of my own, but looking at a few times from a local aquathlon that had some wetsuit optional swims this summer, 1 minute over 750m would be my guess.

If my css time really is a reflection of my 1500m pace, then I am outswimming that by about 1 minute in a wetsuit.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1325

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
My times from Arundel and Rotterdam were slightly quicker than yours, yet my pool times are nowhere near. And I've never done a 1.9K in sub-30, although I think all my 1.9K swims have been in the sea with a variety of swells. I did get good feet on both swims, and I'm sure a wetsuit does me a lot of favours, but I would have thought it is your times that are slow rather than mine that are fast.

Does anyone know what the usual pace curve is across 400 - 750 - 1500 - 1900 - 3800? How much would you expect to slow down?

JaRok2300 wrote:
I noticed someone quoted a pool PB in a 20m pool but then you've got the issue of whether turns are a benefit or hindrance and the shorter the pool the more turns to exaggerate this effect. If you're pool times are improving maybe you're turning quicker of pushing off faster which wouldn't translate to OW.

The 20m pool aspect is the potential outlier. I don't tumble turn and I don't really have any significant underwater push off, maybe 3-4m at most, so I've always assumed it makes marginal difference. That said, I do think over longer swims the ability to "reset" into a good position off the wall more regularly likely helps.

In the 25m pool at the club sessions, I've held 1:28s/1:29s for multiple reps of 100m, and I can't do that at the 20m pool solo (the competitive aspect of group swimming is largely a factor there I think), and I have gone sub6 in that pool for 400m as part of a main set (albeit with a bit of drafting benefit I imagine). The 1:23 100m I mentioned in my post about my swim lesson was in that 25m pool as well, and as I said in that post, that was more of a build, rather than a flat out TT. So they don't seem too far off.

This thread does make me want to try and measure the gym pool though!

I am aware in general my OW times don't translate. I just find the lack of feedback in the OW a real challenge in getting the effort level the right balance between not too hard and not too easy. I maybe am a bit reliant on the pace clock / lap alerts to judge my effort, and maybe have more to give outdoors.

You did mention you got a good set of feet at both Arundel and Rotterdam - I definitely didnt in Rotterdam. Swam solo almost the whole way. Mainly because everyone around me was awful at sighting. They were going way off line even though they were swimming slightly faster (I'm confident in saying I was swimming the correct line as the lead swimmer from the wave behind, so 6mins, came past my shoulder on the final home straight, and I'd deliberately ignored everyone else ahead who were 50+m further off to the left).
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 1640
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tumble turns. I've made it my mission to nail them as I plan on swimming 8k+ a week over the winter.
I tried a about 20 last week in a midday session in the pool on my own and managed to get 5-6 correct with 2 of those pretty much perfect, the rest either too close, too far away, kicking myself into the bottom of the pool and once nearly into the next lane Laughing

My question is - if you approach the wall coming in off the 'wrong' arm, what do you do? Do you learn to tumble off both arms or learn to adjust your stroke so you get there at the same point every time?
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
I am aware in general my OW times don't translate. I just find the lack of feedback in the OW a real challenge in getting the effort level the right balance between not too hard and not too easy. I maybe am a bit reliant on the pace clock / lap alerts to judge my effort, and maybe have more to give outdoors.


Your sub-30 1.9K swims are quick though. In theory you are swimming an extra 400m in 4 mins. If that offset was 6 mins it would give you a 23min 1500m, which I would think is a better reflection of your pool times. But I don't know what a typical pool to OW offset should be?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1325

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
stenard wrote:
I am aware in general my OW times don't translate. I just find the lack of feedback in the OW a real challenge in getting the effort level the right balance between not too hard and not too easy. I maybe am a bit reliant on the pace clock / lap alerts to judge my effort, and maybe have more to give outdoors.


Your sub-30 1.9K swims are quick though. In theory you are swimming an extra 400m in 4 mins. If that offset was 6 mins it would give you a 23min 1500m, which I would think is a better reflection of your pool times. But I don't know what a typical pool to OW offset should be?

I think they are slightly misleading. As I mentioned when I quoted them, they were almost certainly short. I think some people have them under 1800. Jorgan did the June one, not sure what he had?

Other comparable is Weymouth 70.3 from Sept 2016. That was 32mins. The garmin had that at 2k, but who knows, and it's a sea swim. I would say I've improved since then too, at least in theory.
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Ozzie1973




Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 134
Location: Swindon

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For years I've struggled to make any significant progress when swimming, with an average Ironman swim of 1hr 30min.

In the pool my 100m speed is 2min 30sec, which is slow.

So I got some 1-1 coaching and video analysis in an endless pool, and the results are quite dramatic. The coach identified the main problems with my technique, which were:
- Slight crossover at the front
- Arm entry angle, which was putting the brakes on and causing misalignment
- Raising the head slightly too much when breathing

Last night I worked through a few drills, as recommended, and incorporated them into my structured training - a 1,900m swim.

The results were quite surprising - my average time came down to a sustained 2min 10sec per 100m. Still not fast, but definitely heading in the right direction.

I'm currently working through the SwimSmooth course called 'Taming the Arnie', so looking forward to more improvements over the next month.

Definitely worth the relatively small investment. I'll let you know how it goes over the next month...

Ozzie
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 16333
Location: Right Next Door To Hell

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I dont do 1 to 1 one off sessions. Perhaps I should as its a luctrative business but the only way to improve your swim is by regular coach feeedback. Anyone can look at you and say, slight crossover, head too high, etc but fixing this takes many miles of hard work not a 1hr 80 session. Still Swim4Tri et al do quite well out of it. Im lucky to get 25 an hour for my structured weekly swim sessions Wink
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Ozzie1973




Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 134
Location: Swindon

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree - it definitely takes more than one session, but that one session alone has so far helped me more than I've been able to help myself over the last few years.

It's more than a one-off - it's a regular check in to make sure the drills are being correctly incorporated, and there are constant improvements.

What do you think of the SwimSmooth structured training programme, such as 'Taming the Arnie' etc? It looks very accurate to my swim style, and the techniques look like they would benefit me greatly.

Any pearls of wisdom greatly received!

Ozzie
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 16333
Location: Right Next Door To Hell

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozzie1973 wrote:
I agree - it definitely takes more than one session, but that one session alone has so far helped me more than I've been able to help myself over the last few years.

It's more than a one-off - it's a regular check in to make sure the drills are being correctly incorporated, and there are constant improvements.

What do you think of the SwimSmooth structured training programme, such as 'Taming the Arnie' etc? It looks very accurate to my swim style, and the techniques look like they would benefit me greatly.

Any pearls of wisdom greatly received!

Ozzie


Seems you did do well and got soem good advice so its worked for you and thats a good thing. A 1-1 session in that way consistently is not cost effective though but just my opinion. Find a small squad with a good coach. My lane for example is about 8-10 a week (depends on pool) 6 to a lane max. You get the feedback, fitness side and get 2 months for the price of a one off session with Swim4Cash. There are a lot of people just out there trying to make a lot of money out of swim coaching when a masters or club session will give you enough to help and one of those coaches will work with you in a small group in many situations.

Swmsmooth is OK, I dont agree with it all, no coach ever does agree with each other 100%, but its a useful resource at times. Only problem with the online approach is you have no direct feedback. It will only get you so far but if it gets you thinking about what you are doing then thats a good thing. You can self evaluate stroke improvements by counting strokes per length. If you keept he same stroke rate and "continuously swim" without a glide and a change makes you 19 SPL intead of 21 then you know you've improved your efficiency.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's a balance to be struck hammerer.

I've done what you've suggested for the past few years. But as detailed a few posts ago in this thread, also then paid for a 1:1 session. That was with the same club coach that I've been swimming with for those past few years though, so he knew my swimming fairly well anyway, and had been giving me regular pointers over that time. The 1:1 aspect just enabled him to really focus in on me rather than spread his time around a number of others in the club sessions, and then build some specific drills sessions to do in my own time to try and hone the tweaks.

I'm then also getting him inherently checking on my progress during the club swims.

For 30, I thought it was value for money. Would agree that a simple one-off session however might not be quite so productive.


Last edited by stenard on Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And not everyone has access to a decent regular squad session.

Irregular 1-to-1 coupled with solo swimming at a convenient time/location might not be ideal, but would seem a good compromise.
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 1640
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
Tumble turns. I've made it my mission to nail them as I plan on swimming 8k+ a week over the winter.
I tried a about 20 last week in a midday session in the pool on my own and managed to get 5-6 correct with 2 of those pretty much perfect, the rest either too close, too far away, kicking myself into the bottom of the pool and once nearly into the next lane Laughing

My question is - if you approach the wall coming in off the 'wrong' arm, what do you do? Do you learn to tumble off both arms or learn to adjust your stroke so you get there at the same point every time?


Any tips?
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