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lchris21




Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Wales

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have been looking at various FTP derived training plans in prep for my return to racing in 2018. Keep coming back to trainer road?. Had a few months on Zwift last year which I didn't really get on with.

I like to train outdoors, hence the reason I ditched Zwift.

need a bit of structure in my outdoors training, hence I keep searching for some metrics to enable a structured ride approach.

question is, how do TR sets translate to outdoor cycling life? Are they just turbo specific? I'll be using a power-meter to gauge my efforts.

cheers
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Sopworth




Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Location: In the sticks!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris

I'm trying to follow the Sweet Spot Base plan as best as I can, but I do have to include my commute (18miles each way) for a couple of #@?# per week.

I use a PM on my commute and try as best as possible to stay in the sweet spot as much as I can as the route is undulating and it's pointless trying to put the power in on the downhills, so that is my rest.

I'm getting 3 maybe 4 TR workouts each week and topped up with commutes.

How I would love to be able to hit every TR session and squeeze in work and family plus running and swimming.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1800
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lchris21 wrote:
Have been looking at various FTP derived training plans in prep for my return to racing in 2018. Keep coming back to trainer road?. Had a few months on Zwift last year which I didn't really get on with.

I like to train outdoors, hence the reason I ditched Zwift.

need a bit of structure in my outdoors training, hence I keep searching for some metrics to enable a structured ride approach.

question is, how do TR sets translate to outdoor cycling life? Are they just turbo specific? I'll be using a power-meter to gauge my efforts.

cheers


Don't know if you listen to their podcast but they were discussing this on their latest episode (134 I think). I would think that the longer sweetspot reps would be easier to replicate than the shorter VO2 max reps. The sets ultimately are designed for power training on the turbo. I don't have a PM on my bikes but is likely to be a future purchase. I think my plan would be to do the turbo sessions I can during the week and then either TT at the weekend or do my longer aerobic training efforts using the power meter to get my goal power sorted for whatever event I'm training for. My long training ride is down to the south coast and back which is all rolling dual carriageway, and I've usually done that on my TT bike as 20-30 min efforts at race rpe, 5 mins break, then go again.
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2592
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
lchris21 wrote:
Have been looking at various FTP derived training plans in prep for my return to racing in 2018. Keep coming back to trainer road?. Had a few months on Zwift last year which I didn't really get on with.

I like to train outdoors, hence the reason I ditched Zwift.

need a bit of structure in my outdoors training, hence I keep searching for some metrics to enable a structured ride approach.

question is, how do TR sets translate to outdoor cycling life? Are they just turbo specific? I'll be using a power-meter to gauge my efforts.

cheers



Don't know if you listen to their podcast but they were discussing this on their latest episode (134 I think). I would think that the longer sweetspot reps would be easier to replicate than the shorter VO2 max reps. The sets ultimately are designed for power training on the turbo. I don't have a PM on my bikes but is likely to be a future purchase. I think my plan would be to do the turbo sessions I can during the week and then either TT at the weekend or do my longer aerobic training efforts using the power meter to get my goal power sorted for whatever event I'm training for. My long training ride is down to the south coast and back which is all rolling dual carriageway, and I've usually done that on my TT bike as 20-30 min efforts at race rpe, 5 mins break, then go again.


Yeah, but I find the answer is still basically no.

Unless you’ve got some very long, flat, uninterrupted, outdoor rides around which you might but I don’t. Looking at the power files for my outdoor rides they’re neither what you’d call interval nor sustained power rides.

Nevertheless I just substitute in rides when I feel it’s appropriate, even if it doesn’t match very well - a long outdoor ride to a long TR workout, for example, or hill repeats to an interval workout.
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lchris21




Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Wales

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input all. Some more research required....
I've got a 20km (40km round trip) commute 5 days week on my commuting hack. May start wearing a HR monitor to add some structure during the homeward bound sets.
Your info has confirmed my suspicions that getting consistent power data workouts is better executed on the turbo.
Bit of mix and match should enable me to fine tune my power meter derived mid-week training rides and weekend training as i get more experienced using it.
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1078
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pretty much agree if you are training outside TR is not the greatest. It's strengths are the structure it adds to indoor cycling. If I was training out doors I wouldn't try and follow the plans too exactly.

I would be looking for a plan that concentrates on outdoors riding.

I combine TR with outdoor training but when I'm outside it's certainly a very loose guide. Long Ride, Shorter Intervals etc. but I would never look at the intervals and try and match or anything like that. Normally it's just the long weekend rides I do outside as 3hrs+ on turbo is just torture.
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2592
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing they say in their podcasts is to add about an hour. If it’s a two hour aerobic work out, make it a three hour outdoor ride.

I had three or four bike sessions per week in my plan last year, often one was short/easy recovery ride that matches best with a local loop for me with a non athletic buddy.

Occasionally there would be a three, four or even five hour sustained workout. These were mentally extremely tough to complete and I bailed more than once, where a four/five hour ride to the coast was tough but I couldnt bail out.

I think I overreached with medium and high volume plans, I’ll be doing low volume this season to see if I can benefit and last the season.
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Iron ‘17 16h11, '16 14h30
Half Iron ‘18 DNF, '17 7h39, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10K ‘18 50:31 '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1078
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Occasionally there would be a three, four or even five hour sustained workout. These were mentally extremely tough to complete and I bailed more than once, where a four/five hour ride to the coast was tough but I couldnt bail out.



Yeah, Whenever the weather forced the long weekend session indoors, I normally had(chose) to bail early. But once outside and committed to a ride you are normally stuck with little choice but to ride home.
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 400

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When following a TR plan with outdoor rides, I don't try to replicate the TR workout, just to replicate the purpose of the workout. I am fortunate that my commute is about 1 hour on quiet roads with a few different options. One is a fairly flat, uninterupted 10 mile stretch that can be ideal for 60sec/60sec repeats or a 20min tempo. Another I have created 6 segments of between 3 and 6 minutes that go between junctions and is roughly uphill/flat efforts followed by downhill recovery.
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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 1236

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just finished sweetspot base I (high volume), and FTP tested with a 10watt increase.

Reasonably happy, will be delighted if Sweetspot base 2 adds another 10 in the next 6 weeks.
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Sopworth




Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Location: In the sticks!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:
Just finished sweetspot base I (high volume), and FTP tested with a 10watt increase.

Reasonably happy, will be delighted if Sweetspot base 2 adds another 10 in the next 6 weeks.


I suspect if you've managed to complete the a high volume plan, you must be a pretty handy cyclist, so a 10 watt increase in 6 weeks is awesome. I've just done an FTP test to start the second phase of SS base (mid volume) but i've had to jig it around a bit to fit in work commutes and running, but i've gone up 7 watts so i'm happy with that.

Well done mate.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1800
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have tried something a little different in that I did the Sweetspot 1 base med. vol. plan twice, as I knew the second block would coincide with the Christmas period, so it seemed logical to repeat. Just did my ftp test before starting the next block and achieved a 20 watt increase. Shocked Smile I think this is probably more to do with my last test being a little too conservative rather than a genuine large gain. Still nice to have my best ever ftp result since starting with TR.
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Sopworth




Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Location: In the sticks!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
I have tried something a little different in that I did the Sweetspot 1 base med. vol. plan twice, as I knew the second block would coincide with the Christmas period, so it seemed logical to repeat. Just did my ftp test before starting the next block and achieved a 20 watt increase. Shocked Smile I think this is probably more to do with my last test being a little too conservative rather than a genuine large gain. Still nice to have my best ever ftp result since starting with TR.


20 watts! I'd be stoked with that. If I can find 30 watts before April, then I reckon that will be enough to get me under 20 minutes....fingers crossed!

Well done mate.
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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 1236

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

20 watts is MASSIVE!!

Interesting comment re conservative tests, I've had issues trying to manage these.

Some of my early tests were disastrous, I'd chase a 'target' or hoped for wattage then get destroyed - sometimes even just bailing and climbing off.

Current approach is to track my HR - I note HR at 5, 10 and 15 mins from last test and try and work the repeat at similar HR. Find this helps getting consistent effort across tests and thus a 'real' comparison.

Not looking forward to this weekend, a pair of 2 hour sweetspot sessions at the new raised FTP! It's going to sting....
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1800
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So had a Sweetspot session this morning at the new ftp, 4 x8 minutes. Didn't make it through the last one. I think while I get used to the new ftp I'm going to switch to evening sessions as I seem to be able to cope mentally with the work at that time of day.
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