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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 1175

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No denying the TR sessions are tough, glad it's not just me! Not that often I hit every interval exactly on or above power. Usually 1 a week is way off, leading to bailing early or way below power for later intervals.

Zero chance of getting there this w/e.... Embarassed
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1722
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:
No denying the TR sessions are tough, glad it's not just me! Not that often I hit every interval exactly on or above power. Usually 1 a week is way off, leading to bailing early or way below power for later intervals.

Zero chance of getting there this w/e.... Embarassed


I find in those situations that using the intensity adjustment function pretty useful. I drop that by 2-4% and even though I have a lower number to shoot for I tend to end up getting closer to the original power output. Purely a mental thing but seems to work for me.
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a related topic, does anyone know how generous a mk1 Kickr is with power?

For me, I started cycling regularly just over a year ago and did an FTP test with my KK Road Machine and virtual power on TrainerRoad, got 210W.

I've been training somewhat consistently over the year and have switched to Zwift with a Mk1 Kickr. It is suggesting that my FTP is now 257, the jump seems pretty high but obviously there are different measuring devices in the to skew it.

So back to my question, is the Kickr generous compared to other more accurate powermeters?
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Sopworth




Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Location: In the sticks!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jgav wrote:
On a related topic, does anyone know how generous a mk1 Kickr is with power?

For me, I started cycling regularly just over a year ago and did an FTP test with my KK Road Machine and virtual power on TrainerRoad, got 210W.

I've been training somewhat consistently over the year and have switched to Zwift with a Mk1 Kickr. It is suggesting that my FTP is now 257, the jump seems pretty high but obviously there are different measuring devices in the to skew it.

So back to my question, is the Kickr generous compared to other more accurate powermeters?


As long as you use Zwift on the same Kickr, it shouldn't make a difference to your training. For reference, when I was still using Zwift as well as TR, my FTP on Zwift was something like 13 or 14 higher on Zwift, but i'd used the same Kickr throughout.

I have a Stages PM that is reliable with numbers but less so battery life (currently with distributor or a second warranty replacement!). I initially had that on my TT bike from last winter and ran that on one laptop and Kickr on a separate laptop, and for the same workout the wattage was almost identical. Even when that Stages PM was changed, I carried out a similar test and the numbers were the same again.
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Sopworth




Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Location: In the sticks!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of cadence when using TR. I've noticed that throughout the Sweet Spot base phases 1 and now 2, the on screen instructions indicate a cadence of around 85-95. When in the SS, my cadence in the aero position is averaging around 100-102. It only really drops down to around 95 when I'm doing the 105% efforts.

Is my cadence to fast? It's a part of my TT'ing that I wanted to improve and making best efforts to do it (my average at National 25 last year was 76!). I don't think my FTP is wrong as I struggle to complete some workouts (over and unders) and the longer 1/5-2hour SS rides are very hard and my legs are spent on completion, but if I drop to around 95rpm at SS I do find it a lot harder.

Anyone any thoughts on whether or not i'm not training correctly?
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2563
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sopworth wrote:
On the subject of cadence when using TR. I've noticed that throughout the Sweet Spot base phases 1 and now 2, the on screen instructions indicate a cadence of around 85-95. When in the SS, my cadence in the aero position is averaging around 100-102. It only really drops down to around 95 when I'm doing the 105% efforts.

Is my cadence to fast? It's a part of my TT'ing that I wanted to improve and making best efforts to do it (my average at National 25 last year was 76!). I don't think my FTP is wrong as I struggle to complete some workouts (over and unders) and the longer 1/5-2hour SS rides are very hard and my legs are spent on completion, but if I drop to around 95rpm at SS I do find it a lot harder.

Anyone any thoughts on whether or not i'm not training correctly?


In short I think youíre fine.

I believe the current view is to race at any cadence that suits you. When it comes to training though, most people have a low cadence under 75, which they donít like. Essentially have as a high a cadence as youíre comfortable with as long as your form remains good - no knocking, excessive wobbling etc.

I was on the low 75-80 side, I find it much better at 90-100 as it feels like less strain on the muscles.
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 1243
Location: Tunbridge Wells

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you done any testing on Power vs HR vs Cadence?

I found some interesting results that I didn't expect
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2563
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
Have you done any testing on Power vs HR vs Cadence?

I found some interesting results that I didn't expect


Not studied, but Iíve noticed my HR higher with higher cadence for the same power output. I donít know if itís right but I think of it as trading between muscle endurance and cardiovascular endurance.
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Iron Ď17 16h11, '16 14h30
Half Iron Ď18 DNF, '17 7h39, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Sopworth




Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Location: In the sticks!

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
Have you done any testing on Power vs HR vs Cadence?

I found some interesting results that I didn't expect


What sort of results did you get?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1658

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
TriSam wrote:
Have you done any testing on Power vs HR vs Cadence?

I found some interesting results that I didn't expect


Not studied, but Iíve noticed my HR higher with higher cadence for the same power output. I donít know if itís right but I think of it as trading between muscle endurance and cardiovascular endurance.

I see the same, and loosely consider the same rationale
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sopworth wrote:
Jgav wrote:
On a related topic, does anyone know how generous a mk1 Kickr is with power?

For me, I started cycling regularly just over a year ago and did an FTP test with my KK Road Machine and virtual power on TrainerRoad, got 210W.

I've been training somewhat consistently over the year and have switched to Zwift with a Mk1 Kickr. It is suggesting that my FTP is now 257, the jump seems pretty high but obviously there are different measuring devices in the to skew it.

So back to my question, is the Kickr generous compared to other more accurate powermeters?


As long as you use Zwift on the same Kickr, it shouldn't make a difference to your training. For reference, when I was still using Zwift as well as TR, my FTP on Zwift was something like 13 or 14 higher on Zwift, but i'd used the same Kickr throughout.

I have a Stages PM that is reliable with numbers but less so battery life (currently with distributor or a second warranty replacement!). I initially had that on my TT bike from last winter and ran that on one laptop and Kickr on a separate laptop, and for the same workout the wattage was almost identical. Even when that Stages PM was changed, I carried out a similar test and the numbers were the same again.


I am using the same equipment for every ride now. Probably need to go and do an FTP test as it's been so long since I last did one. Finding SST quite tough at current targets.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1722
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So after getting a nice increase in my ftp after my last test, I really struggled working at this new value. Had to drop by a quite a few watts for a couple of weeks. As I am nearing the end of this latest block I have been able to nudge my ftp number up to where it should have been, but still a few watts short. Also found that the VO2 sessions really take it out of me. Did one last week and it took me a full three days to recover. The Sweetspot sets are getting easier but the stuff over ftp seem disproportionately harder. Iíve dropped the the low volume Sweetspot plan as I just wasnít completing the number of sessions but where possible I have tried to put in an additional easy aerobic session, just to keep the legs ticking over. Current values are best Iíve had in three years since using TR which is great but I need to have a big focus on aerodynamics as thatís still pretty fugly.
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Sopworth




Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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Location: In the sticks!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
So after getting a nice increase in my ftp after my last test, I really struggled working at this new value. Had to drop by a quite a few watts for a couple of weeks. As I am nearing the end of this latest block I have been able to nudge my ftp number up to where it should have been, but still a few watts short. Also found that the VO2 sessions really take it out of me. Did one last week and it took me a full three days to recover. The Sweetspot sets are getting easier but the stuff over ftp seem disproportionately harder. Iíve dropped the the low volume Sweetspot plan as I just wasnít completing the number of sessions but where possible I have tried to put in an additional easy aerobic session, just to keep the legs ticking over. Current values are best Iíve had in three years since using TR which is great but I need to have a big focus on aerodynamics as thatís still pretty fugly.

Ah, exactly the same has happened to me mate. I'm on week 3 of SSB MV2 and even though my FTP went up a couple after the last test, some of the VO2 sessions have been a real struggle. I had to bang out of Carpathian Peak +2 with about 5 minutes of the last interval remaining - my legs were just shot. I couldn't attempt to even get on my bike for the following days session. I've taken 3 days off the bike before I do a 1hr session tomorrow.
Kind of got me worried that i've not improved after all this work i've put in on the turbo since last October. I clearly must be as I can hold a much higher power than my previous testing on a road bike, but now i'm down in an aero position.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1658

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First proper test in a long time this morning. Informally had upped my FTP to 230W in the training leading up to my second HIM in August last year, and bumped slightly further to 235W after that race.

Started being coached in November, but all the initial sessions were to HR whilst my coach monitored the numbers. From December, he suggested a 245W FTP.

The test this morning came out with 252W, so a nice improvement and pretty much validating the kind of numbers I had been informally working to. Think I got about as good a performance as I could. Averaged 265W for the 20mins, with 5min splits of 266W, 265W, 265W, 263W.

Can't imagine an FTP bump of 7 watts will make sessions that much more difficult, but we will see.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1722
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have decided on a bit of a departure. Although I have enjoyed trainerroad and I have seen some good gains with it over the last couple of years, I have found that I have been increasingly tired and run down. This is by no means all down to TR but I have found the intensity of some of the sessions and the weekly accumulation just a little bit too much for me, even on the low volume plans when life and other things are factored in.

So I have decided to ditch the training plans altogether and focus on doing appropriate sessions when I have the energy / time / enthusiasm. I've been doing this for the last few weeks and I have found it much easier to deal with and I'm not beating myself up if I miss a session. I've been doing more sweetspot work and taken a couple of weeks off the VO2 max sessions, which I take ages to recover from. I will do the VO2 sessions, but less often. I guess the trade off is that I will not see the gains of previous years, but for my training mojo and general health I am sure this is the right way forward.
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