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The sub-17/18 min 5k thread
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 1246
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gingerbongo wrote:

When i'm going quick my cadence normally hovers around 192, but about 180-184 when i'm cruising. I'd say it's probably a few spm under that at the moment. I know it's fatigue related, as whenever i start to tire i find myself striding out and thus dropping my cadence as i struggle to hang on to a pace.


That's a fast turnover, your legs must be a blur!

I'm a bit like twhat, seem to get to my best when training with the club consistently, partly because you try and keep up with other people who are normally a bit quicker. Not totally sure it's an ego thing, just seems easier when there's others. Also have a similar effect when I run with a couple of the lads in the office. I tend to go downhill when the mileage goes up.

Jeff
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YKK




Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 292
Location: North&West london

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gingerbongo wrote:
Whereas this year i've been incredibly inconsistent.


This of course is the key. I suspect either over mileage or just the shorter painful stuff works as long as the C word is there.

On another note, I have always struggled with Tempo running, given we are similar in pace (with the longer stuff) do you expect your tempo runs to get to be much quicker then just under 4's?
I ask as I am currently trying some by doing a 5 mile (8k) run once a week around that pace. In my mind it counts as a tempo run, but then I read it should be quicker.
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1620
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also always struggled with tempo runs in two ways. One is just knowing what actually is tempo? There seems to be differing opionions, but i've always viewed it as somewhere between 10km and 1/2 mara pace. Not sure if that's right though. And secondly, it's just a horrible pace to run at. Especially alone.

In answer to your question, I absolutely would hope that the 'tempo' pace will get quicker. I used ot be able to cruise around at sub 4 pace with ease, think i just need to get my body used to that again. Probably a bit mental as well.

My 1/2 pb from 18 months ago was at 3.39/km (though that was after a bad case of D&V and blindly chasing sub 75, so i think had i run it steadie it would have been a minute or so quicker again, or 3 secs/km). Based on that it seems ridiculous that i struggle now at 4/km! I guess it's the first time since i started tri/running 'properly' in 2013 that i've significantly dropped fitness and speed ... and it's kind of sobering! But that's probably more to do with my frail ego than anything else!

I agree with Jeff and Twhat though regarding club stuff. It is so much easier to push on the hard stuff when i'm with other people. Unfortunately lunchtime solo runs are just so much easier to fit into my life schedule. But i do hope to get down to club every other week for the next couple of months (and then baby #2 and the real pain train [not the fake single child train] arrives!!) Shocked Very Happy
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1241
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gingerbongo wrote:
I've also always struggled with tempo runs in two ways. One is just knowing what actually is tempo? There seems to be differing opionions, but i've always viewed it as somewhere between 10km and 1/2 mara pace. Not sure if that's right though. And secondly, it's just a horrible pace to run at. Especially alone.

In answer to your question, I absolutely would hope that the 'tempo' pace will get quicker. I used ot be able to cruise around at sub 4 pace with ease, think i just need to get my body used to that again. Probably a bit mental as well.

My 1/2 pb from 18 months ago was at 3.39/km (though that was after a bad case of D&V and blindly chasing sub 75, so i think had i run it steadie it would have been a minute or so quicker again, or 3 secs/km). Based on that it seems ridiculous that i struggle now at 4/km! I guess it's the first time since i started tri/running 'properly' in 2013 that i've significantly dropped fitness and speed ... and it's kind of sobering! But that's probably more to do with my frail ego than anything else!

I agree with Jeff and Twhat though regarding club stuff. It is so much easier to push on the hard stuff when i'm with other people. Unfortunately lunchtime solo runs are just so much easier to fit into my life schedule. But i do hope to get down to club every other week for the next couple of months (and then baby #2 and the real pain train [not the fake single child train] arrives!!) Shocked Very Happy


Allelujah.. tempo sucks. But i think i was doing it wrong. Copy and paste from Hal Higdon..

A tempo run is a continuous run with a buildup in the middle to near 10-K race pace. Notice I said “near” 10-K race pace. Coach Jack Daniels defines the peak pace for tempo runs as the pace you might run if racing flat-out for about an hour. That’s fairly fast, particularly if the tempo run is 45 minutes long, but you’re only going to be near peak pace for 3-6 minutes in the middle of the run. In the Advanced 2 programs, tempo runs are scheduled for Tuesdays or Thursdays. Here’s how to do this workout. A tempo run of 30 to 40 minutes would begin with 10-15 minutes easy running, then accelerate gradually and build to peak speed during the next 10-20 minutes, then finish with 5-10 minutes easy running. The pace buildup should be gradual, not sudden, with peak speed coming about two-thirds into the workout and only for those few minutes mentioned above. You can do tempo runs almost anywhere: on the road, on trails or even on a track. Tempo runs should not be punishing. You should finish refreshed, which will happen if you don’t push the pace too hard or too long. It helps also to pick a scenic course for your tempo runs. You can do your tempo run with another runner, but usually it works better to run solo. There’s less danger of going too slow or (more the problem) too fast if you choose his pace, not yours.

I need some consistency back in my training, the last month has been woeful but i think i probably needed to chill a bit (plus my back is still dodgy.. moan moan whinge whinge)

Good luck with the baby GB...
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1620
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

twhat wrote:
gingerbongo wrote:
I've also always struggled with tempo runs in two ways. One is just knowing what actually is tempo? There seems to be differing opionions, but i've always viewed it as somewhere between 10km and 1/2 mara pace. Not sure if that's right though. And secondly, it's just a horrible pace to run at. Especially alone.

In answer to your question, I absolutely would hope that the 'tempo' pace will get quicker. I used ot be able to cruise around at sub 4 pace with ease, think i just need to get my body used to that again. Probably a bit mental as well.

My 1/2 pb from 18 months ago was at 3.39/km (though that was after a bad case of D&V and blindly chasing sub 75, so i think had i run it steadie it would have been a minute or so quicker again, or 3 secs/km). Based on that it seems ridiculous that i struggle now at 4/km! I guess it's the first time since i started tri/running 'properly' in 2013 that i've significantly dropped fitness and speed ... and it's kind of sobering! But that's probably more to do with my frail ego than anything else!

I agree with Jeff and Twhat though regarding club stuff. It is so much easier to push on the hard stuff when i'm with other people. Unfortunately lunchtime solo runs are just so much easier to fit into my life schedule. But i do hope to get down to club every other week for the next couple of months (and then baby #2 and the real pain train [not the fake single child train] arrives!!) Shocked Very Happy


Allelujah.. tempo sucks. But i think i was doing it wrong. Copy and paste from Hal Higdon..

A tempo run is a continuous run with a buildup in the middle to near 10-K race pace. Notice I said “near” 10-K race pace. Coach Jack Daniels defines the peak pace for tempo runs as the pace you might run if racing flat-out for about an hour. That’s fairly fast, particularly if the tempo run is 45 minutes long, but you’re only going to be near peak pace for 3-6 minutes in the middle of the run. In the Advanced 2 programs, tempo runs are scheduled for Tuesdays or Thursdays. Here’s how to do this workout. A tempo run of 30 to 40 minutes would begin with 10-15 minutes easy running, then accelerate gradually and build to peak speed during the next 10-20 minutes, then finish with 5-10 minutes easy running. The pace buildup should be gradual, not sudden, with peak speed coming about two-thirds into the workout and only for those few minutes mentioned above. You can do tempo runs almost anywhere: on the road, on trails or even on a track. Tempo runs should not be punishing. You should finish refreshed, which will happen if you don’t push the pace too hard or too long. It helps also to pick a scenic course for your tempo runs. You can do your tempo run with another runner, but usually it works better to run solo. There’s less danger of going too slow or (more the problem) too fast if you choose his pace, not yours.

I need some consistency back in my training, the last month has been woeful but i think i probably needed to chill a bit (plus my back is still dodgy.. moan moan whinge whinge)

Good luck with the baby GB...


That's interesting, thanks.

Maybe what i have been doing and will probably continue to do in some form should be referred to as threshold intervals or something? Who knows!! Rolling Eyes Very Happy
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1620
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Managed to squirm an hour free on Saturday, so popped down for another Parkrun. Have been cycling a fair bit (for me) lately as my car has broken, and being so untrained on the bike it's been killing me!!! So i knew i'd be a bit tired going into the run, but nothing major.

Managed to get to about 2.5km before really slowing down this time which is an improvement of over a km!! Very Happy

Kms 1 and 2 were decent and steady. HR was also much steadier, so i think the fitness is slowly returning. The back half was into a bit of a headwind (nothing silly, but enough to slow you down and send the HR up). I hung on to the end of km 3 and then the airbrakes just automatically deployed and i went backwards! Kept my position in the field, but the bungee broke and i lost all my time to the front runners over the next 1500m.

Still managed to dig in over the last few hundred metres to try (though failed) and catch the guy in front.

Finished with a 17.37, so about 20 secs faster than 2 weeks ago. Slow progress, but progress nonetheless! I think i'll probably squeeze a bit more out if it cooled down a touch as well!!!

I'm actually feeling quite motivated at the moment, so i'm hoping another month of training and i may be getting there.
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 1246
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heading in the right direction GB, most people would be happy with a 20s improvement, although I suppose you are probably seeing it as getting back what you've had before.

The cycling might be helping, bit of leg strength chasing down the other cyclists or holding them off!

The heat can't be helping even though we should be getting used to it by now, but the body has to work hard to keep cool.

Do you have a target race you want to do well on, or just going to smash another parkrun. The usual semi-quick lads must be gutted when you rock up and outdo them.

Jeff
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1620
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really, just going to enjoy the fact that PR is free, every week and always attracts a decent enough field.

There's another club relay coming up that i fancy being in better shape for. 3km legs, so suits me perfectly if i can get the legs up to speed again.

I must admit, the only thing i am tempted by at the moment is another stab at the JC100 next year!!
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1241
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

17.37.. good time GB, i'm jealous. Ive still got back issues but i am running again. 6x1k last night was a bit slower than a month ago, i'm not sure if thats the beer, the stiff back or the windy conditions last night. I'm starting a new marathon build as of now and will hopefully get to a few parkruns over summer.. still think ive got a pb in me this year, although that will require actually getting to a race....
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1620
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, the work continues for me and i'm starting to get a bot more positive after a few good workouts lately.

Did a 2 mile, 2 x 1 mile, 4 x 0.5 mile session last week at sub 3.38, sub 3.28 and sub 3.18 paces. Felt pretty strong and negative split every rep and every set.

Then did a 7.7km trail race last Friday. Felt ok for the first few kms on the rolling terrain but really struggled on the big hills. Managed to nab a position on the line with a sprint finish at the top of the hill though, so that was postive.

Last night did a 6 x 400m, 60r, 4 min R, 6 x 400m, 30r, 4 min R, 3 x 200m, 30r. That was pretty brutal as the sets wore on, especially with only 30secs rest! First set was (83, 80, 80, 80, 80, 78 ) and second was (80, 79, 79, 80, 77, 79) 80/400m is 3:20/km pace so super chuffed with the pacing and holding the speed!! Went all out on the 200s and took them all under 30secs to completely wipe the body out.

Having not done much intensity for so long, there's no doubt that fatigue will have threaded through all 3 sessions even if my overall mileage still isn't very high. I'm only averaging 33km per week for the last 4 weeks. So i think it's a positive that i'm holding on through the workouts. Planning a really tough 5 x 1km at 3.24 pace, off 1 min rests, next week. Let's see what the legs say to that!!!

I've noted that as with the Arc, my body has recovered mostly from the Jurassic Coast 100, but it's the hills that still kill me. I seem to find some relatively decent (bearing in mind the lack of speed focus) form on the flats, and can happily start going longer. The problem is as soon as it tips upwards then it's like the fatigue is sitting really deep inside my muscles and only comes out on 6% and up hills. If the Arc is anything to go by, it'll be a few weeks before my hill legs return, but as i'm focussing on speed i can get away with it. Once they are back however, i'll statr mixing hill sprints in with my track work.

All in all, i think an assault on sub 17 is definitely on the cards this summer. I'm feeling faster and stronger with every week. Just need to try and up the mileage a tad, if possible, before baby #2 comes along and ruins it all! Very Happy
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going in the right direction GB, do you not find that if you do speedwork and big miles that it causes problems with fatigue so the quality sessions don't have the same quality.

I think my sweet spot seems to be something like 45-50k PW with a couple of decent sessions and maybe 1-2 bike rides but nothing brutal.

Any parkruns coming up to assess the current progress?

Jeff
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1620
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:
Going in the right direction GB, do you not find that if you do speedwork and big miles that it causes problems with fatigue so the quality sessions don't have the same quality.

I think my sweet spot seems to be something like 45-50k PW with a couple of decent sessions and maybe 1-2 bike rides but nothing brutal.

Any parkruns coming up to assess the current progress?

Jeff


Yeah, that's pretty much what i'm aiming for, about 50km per week. I think i could handle up o about 75km pretty easily with the sessions, just don't think i can physically fit that in at the moment!! My longer 2-3 hour coastal headtorch runs tend to actually pick up in the winter as my friends and i seem to have more evenings free, so that helps for strength over the winter.

Yeah i will try to get to a PR soon, just not sure when i'm free. Doing my first full day outdoor lead climbing down on Portland tomorrow and absoutely cannot wait!!!
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 1267
Location: Tunbridge Wells

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucy Charles with a 16:45 at the Gunpowder Parkrun this morning..
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
Lucy Charles with a 16:45 at the Gunpowder Parkrun this morning..


Check out the lad from my local Exmouth parkrun though!!!! Four (i think) were all sub 16, top

He's about 19/20, i've raced him many times (well i've been in the same race as him).

14.21 Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the Nottingham club relays at the weekend, I was the first runner so the distance was short for me but my pace was on for a 18:00 5K. Hoping for a sub 18 soon.
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