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Leg muscle balance?
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Leigh


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Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think you only need 5 excercises to become VERY strong and well balanced - squat, dumbell bench press, deadlift, clean and press, chin ups

anything else is for bodybuilding
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LeeD




Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Swindon

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel a balance of free weights and machines works best.

With free weights you use more muscles in each lift as you have to control the direction of the movement as well as the force required to lift it, machines only use the force to lift as small errors in direction make no difference as the machine compensates for you.

However, machines are good for working single leg or single arm at a time, to help assess if there is an imbalance between sides that needs to be corrected, i.e. I will only ever do leg presses on one leg at a time. They are also good if you are training on your own as you don't need a spotter.
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The Bionik Man




Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 5525
Location: hampshire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as said your abductors will never be as strong as your quads.
dont neglect your lower back .
right i am currently using the gym after years of different routines i am currently working on muscular endrance rather than strength.
this consists of timed set instead of max weight or higher reps.
example: legs press 40kg for 3 mins, steady no locking of the knees nice and slow concentrating on the movement rather than the weight.
sit ups ( crunches) 3 mins, as above( movement not amount)
single leg lunges 3 mins holing 10 kg in each hand.
and so on.
its a real intense workout and is really hard, doing lots of core work,
stretching and hamstring and calf strength.

there is lots of evidence to show that gym work will not help your tri performance, however it can help( musclar imbalance) build up weak area's and give you a break from running bike and swim.

i am finding yoga really great and felling much calmer and more supple after just 3 weeks, have already paid for another 4 weeks.

i think the single BIGGEST mistake that i see people doing in the gym is,
throwing the weight around, bad form and letting the weight control you not you controlling the weight.
remember heavier is not always better.
slow controlled movement will give you better gains, less risk of injury and increase your knowlage of how muscles work.
good luck.

BTW i think it was hdavies? said a few weeks ago and i agree, that if your doing gym work try to do exersises that complement tri, that mimic the movements,
ex:lunges wil help running and cycling.
standing lat pulldownd will help swimming
legg press will help bike and running.
think about the movemnt and try to think if they will assist tri.
that said balance is important, what the point of really strong developed triceps if your biceps and like spaggetti
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nathan




Joined: 05 May 2005
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Location: Bedfordshire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why your leg extension lift is 45Kg but the inner thigh movement lifts more weight is simply because the leg extension is a single joint rotary movement and is not functional hence the reason why you are not very good at it.

On the flipside your adductors work not just to stabilise your hip and knee they are also secondary hip flexors so all that running and cycling will increase your strength and hence give you outstanding performance on that machine.

If you want proffessional advice on Strength Conditioning for sport you need to find someone with the letters CSCS after there name for Certified Strength Conditioning Specialist, its a US post graduate qualification that requires re licensing every three years and is the only qualification of its kind. Its unlikely the Fitness trainers at your shiny gym have it.

Contrary to what some people have said properly structured gym work/strength training will make a huge difference to your triathlon performance and if done properly it will help with the prevention of injury.


Nathan
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The Bionik Man




Joined: 27 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nail on the head.
a properly structred one.
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wilbur4s




Joined: 06 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

right, this is the work out i have spent all day designing for myself.....kind of like drooling over bike components but for gym workers!

bear with me on this

day1
foam rolling
core work/stabilisation
clean and press 5*5
bench press 5*5
lat pull down 5*5
dead lift 5*5
each of these have a minte rest

then....
hand walks.....25 meters (in press up position with feet in a frizbee, using hands to crawl along!)
straight into walking lunges with 15k plate 25m
staright into med ball throw downs (hold a medicine ball above you haed and chuck it down into the floor) for a minute
rest for 5 minutes and repeat 2 more times

gone blank on day 2 so i'll get it tomorrow and post it!
but that is enough for one day!
it may seem strange but it does work for power and endurance, which is key to tri's
it takes a good couple hours and your bound to get a few dodgy looks when you come to the second section!
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yoyodub




Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to the gym for the first time in 18 months on Monday. And I did use the lightest weights because I know that it's about form and consistency and patience and all that stuff. And I'm still hobbling from the crippling hamstring curls - I think I might be reduced to lifting air soon; fortunately, no condescending meatheads in my neck of the woods.
I'm going to follow the prog outlined in Weight Training for Cyclists and look forward to blasting past Jan 'le pie man' Ullrich in next years TdF.
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islifejustaplayground?




Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I don't want to sound rude, but its quite clear your knowledge of strength training/muscle building is not up to scratch, and I fear the hours you spend in the gym playing with the machines will be a waste of time and would be better spent on the bike/running/swimming.

Don't forget you can work on cycle strength on the bike, grinding up hills in a big gear for sets will really help in that department.
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AndyS




Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

islifejustaplayground? wrote:
To be honest I don't want to sound rude, but its quite clear your knowledge of strength training/muscle building is not up to scratch


Do you mean me? If so, you're correct. I haven't got a clue. It's good the machines control your movement direction as I have no idea what I should be doing. I also have no idea what the movements are called. If they didn't have little pictures on the side I wouldn't even know what to do with some of them. Including the three times I've lifted weights this month I've done this kind of session 4 times in my life. The other time was at Crystal Palace about 20 years ago, luckily my local gym isn't so far up it's own...


(edit to correct spelling mistake)


Last edited by AndyS on Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leigh


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy s, if you wnat to learn about getting strong, go to the railway gym in ashford. ian douglas runs it and is a world champion masters powerlifter. he's also a really nice bloke
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islifejustaplayground?




Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, I didn't intend to be rude.

The problem with weight training for beginners is this, firstly, there is a big enough debate about what sort of routine or programme you should follow even if you were to know what you're doing, some people will tell you one thing, others will tell you another, the even more confusing thing is that such and such routine will work for someone, but not someone else, there is no universal programme you can really follow which says 'you will gain strength if you follow this' or 'you will gain muscle if you follow this'

Then you have to couple that with fact that diet, recovery and other factors are key to your success. Whats to say you follow some programme for months and then find that its done nothing, but theres nothing wrong with the programme, you just weren't eating enough?

Then we get to the actual training itself, not many beginners have an idea of how hard you actually have to push yourself to make gains.

As I said its a difficult thing to get right, and there is so much debate about what works and what doesn't - it's very confusing.

Then we get to the debate about whether weight training actually does anything useful for triathletes or not...you see its endless.

You said your goal was a sub-11 at ironman austria, I would say that that target is possible without weight training at all, as I said, your time would probably be better spent away from the machines in the gym.

Even if you did master lifting weights for your goal, say, getting stronger, whats to say that this will actually help you as a triathlete? It will most likely take a LONG time and lots of trial and error to make some noticeable and worth while gains, and lots of the time spent in the gym could be wasted.

That said if you have a friend or somebody(who knows what they're doing with this sorta stuff) who can show you the ropes and explain the ins and outs for a few weeks or months then you have won half the battle. Then you would be able to assess whether or not your weight training is worthwhile.

As other people have suggested you can try asking at the gym, they will most likely show you the basics like how to perform certain exercises, and give you a rough structure to follow, but this is far from ideal.
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yoyodub




Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

islifejustaplayground? wrote:
As I said, I didn't intend to be rude.


Offence rarely taken, this is a forum.

Quote:
The problem with weight training for beginners is this, firstly, there is a big enough debate about what sort of routine or programme you should follow even if you were to know what you're doing, some people will tell you one thing, others will tell you another, the even more confusing thing is that such and such routine will work for someone, but not someone else, there is no universal programme you can really follow which says 'you will gain strength if you follow this' or 'you will gain muscle if you follow this'


True of so many things in life when a neophyte approaches them. So much advice, so little knowledge out there.

Quote:
Then we get to the actual training itself, not many beginners have an idea of how hard you actually have to push yourself to make gains.


Presumably sore is good, pain so that you have a headache the following day all day and can't walk means you've gone too far.

Quote:
You said your goal was a sub-11 at ironman austria, I would say that that target is possible without weight training at all, as I said, your time would probably be better spent away from the machines in the gym.


Unless bike strength, par exemple, remains the major limiter for AndyS; as you say, we're all different, methinks you're coming to a conclusion about AndyS's make-up with too little info. Unless you know him, in which case, apologies.

Quote:
Even if you did master lifting weights for your goal, say, getting stronger, whats to say that this will actually help you as a triathlete? It will most likely take a LONG time and lots of trial and error to make some noticeable and worth while gains, and lots of the time spent in the gym could be wasted.


So we might as well not bother. With anything unless we're sure we can get it right before we start. In which case, we wouldn't get very far in life. And none of us would be a triathlete Smile

Quote:
That said if you have a friend or somebody(who knows what they're doing with this sorta stuff) who can show you the ropes and explain the ins and outs for a few weeks or months then you have won half the battle. Then you would be able to assess whether or not your weight training is worthwhile.


Don't get me wrong playingground, no dig, but you sound a tad like my best mate who always comes up with plenty of reasons why most things people try are a bad idea (but when he does them, he gets them spot on), but can't really offer positive advice, only negative criticism. Of which there's far too much in the world.

You clearly absolutely know your stuff in the weights room. Let's assume that some of us newcomers to that rather unwelcoming abode have taken advice from trained PTIs, is there anything that you might add that could help?

Muchas gracias, tio
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Conan




Joined: 09 Feb 2005
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how you guys get ot the gym! I'm too knackered from my swim bike run training!

My strength comes from core work at home on swiss ball sometimes with free weights if I can lift them but is low weight high rep as I'm trying to condition my core here. I do shed loads of paddle work in the pool and use a band to tie my legs toghter so can;t kick (oh and no pullbouy). On the bike I do 20min blocks of big gear work 53x11 at about 50rpm business, just like squatting in the gym but stressing the muscles in the range of motion that I need the strength and I run hills, lots of hills!

Just my opinion but unless your injured or your maxed out time wise ie already training 35hours a week you'd be better off doing something specific!
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islifejustaplayground?




Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your comment about not bothering unless we get it right from the start is slightly antagonistic -

With cardio vascular training, thats not true at all, any cardiovascular training unless its damaging you in some way is helpful - at the very least you are burning some calories.

Thats not the same when it comes to weight training. How many people do you know who go to the gym and "lift some weights" but have nothing to show for it? I know plenty.
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yoyodub




Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="islifejustaplayground?"]Your comment about not bothering unless we get it right from the start is slightly antagonistic - quote]

Fair enough. Forgive me.

What I wished to express, life, is merely that, whilst I do see people around me who fail to give weight training the respect it demands if results are to follow, I hope to avoid these mistakes by taking advice from qualified sources, broadening my knowledge by consulting reliable and renowned oracles, and by applying common sense.

My post was intended to get you to open up, not shut up. It clearly had quite the wrong effect. I apologize.

Any tips?
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