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The Sub 11 Ironman Thread
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KingstonGraham




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skipper wrote:
Surely this thread is not going to be any different then the sub 10 thread, there's not really anything you would do differently generally the sessions are going to be pretty similar.



The sub 20 minute and the sub 18 minute 5k threads are quite different, even though neither are world beating times.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1


Getting to sub 18 from sub 20 is like going from sub 25 to sub 20.

A lot of hard work plus lots more time required to take it to that next level.
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SidSnot




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what sort of bike sessions would people recommend to get around the 5:30 mark?
I have never really gone out on the bike with a specific session in mind, just blast around on the mountain bike or steady road bike.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidSnot wrote:
So what sort of bike sessions would people recommend to get around the 5:30 mark?
I have never really gone out on the bike with a specific session in mind, just blast around on the mountain bike or steady road bike.


Need to average 20.5mph to hit 5:30 pace! but its not about getting the bike around 5:30 but getting the bike around 5, so 5:30 seems very easy!

although Im no expert I always find 3hr /50miles ish rides, hard in the hills with nice blocks at threshold, and are far more use than a 5hr pootle admiring the views which Is what i feel too many get caught up in....couple hour turbos like back to back sufferfests also...very hard work and getting you used to hurting. makes IM pace seem easy.
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
SidSnot wrote:
So what sort of bike sessions would people recommend to get around the 5:30 mark?
I have never really gone out on the bike with a specific session in mind, just blast around on the mountain bike or steady road bike.


Need to average 20.5mph to hit 5:30 pace! but its not about getting the bike around 5:30 but getting the bike around 5, so 5:30 seems very easy!

although Im no expert I always find 3hr /50miles ish rides, hard in the hills with nice blocks at threshold, and are far more use than a 5hr pootle admiring the views which Is what i feel too many get caught up in....couple hour turbos like back to back sufferfests also...very hard work and getting you used to hurting. makes IM pace seem easy.


Yep, Id agree with that.

As I said before I have been doing a few seasons of time trialling which has taught me to push much harder on the bike than I used to. No way I could run well off the bike after those rides as they would be well above the rpe that I would adopt in a HIM or IM but I am hoping it will help me ride faster at a lower effort level. Looking at 1 turbo session per week with 30-40 minutes of an hour's session at or around thershold and then bulking it out with a couple of 1 hour commute rides on the way home.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I commute 18k each way most days...at the moment the morning is done at a reasonable lick, with homeward always small ring 100+RPM work...never less the 15 at the rear so 60odd Gear Inches at most and spinning downhill rather than freewheeling also. Not sure if it will work but hoping it means I get speed in the legs ready to build up the gears later in the off season.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually think people set goal times way too early, especially with long distance things. For a late summer IM, why care about times now? You've no idea what your fitness will be like. Set shorter term goals, which make sense and build (as subconsciously as you can) on the IM goal. So it's winter, focus on a end of winter half marathon or cycle race like crazy to build that FTP up.

ie there's no point getting into a mentality of wanting to run a 4 hour marathon, if a bit of winter training has got you to a 1:25 half marathon by feb. Most people on this board have loads of potential (or have already realised it) and would do better just focusing on lots of short term goals and then re-assessing.
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jibberjim wrote:
I actually think people set goal times way too early, especially with long distance things. For a late summer IM, why care about times now? You've no idea what your fitness will be like. Set shorter term goals, which make sense and build (as subconsciously as you can) on the IM goal. So it's winter, focus on a end of winter half marathon or cycle race like crazy to build that FTP up.

ie there's no point getting into a mentality of wanting to run a 4 hour marathon, if a bit of winter training has got you to a 1:25 half marathon by feb. Most people on this board have loads of potential (or have already realised it) and would do better just focusing on lots of short term goals and then re-assessing.


Fair point Jim, but I dont think it hurts to have a longer term goal in mind. So, taking Jim's point on board, what's everyone's shorter term goals then? For me, it's to get running injury free. In terms of the bike I would like to dip under the hour for a 25tt early next spring and therefore this winter will be a consistent 3-4 bikes per week as mentioned above including a 2.5-3.5 ride on Sundays.
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Cake1Me0




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidSnot wrote:
So what sort of bike sessions would people recommend to get around the 5:30 mark?
I have never really gone out on the bike with a specific session in mind, just blast around on the mountain bike or steady road bike.



If you have power aim for 2.5-3w /kg and be as aero as possible.
If you don't have power find a looped route nearby that mimicks your course conditions and ride around it at a steady effort that relates to your IM bike effort (75-80% max hr). Average speed for a 5.30 split is 20.3 mph, you want to be holding 19mph at least on your road bike for efforts up to 2 hours at this intensity. Start with 30 mins and add 15 every 2 weeks or so til you can do it for 2 hours +.
Keep doing it once a week with a longer ride at the weekend. Progress your long ride closer to race day by including intervals at this effort (2,3,4, x 30,45,60 mins etc). get the feeling of it ingrained into your legs and mind by riding at it a hell of a lot til it becomes natural.
I used a 4.5 mile loop around a lake near where I was living, 5:25 at the outlaw.
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skipper




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cake1Me0 wrote:
SidSnot wrote:
So what sort of bike sessions would people recommend to get around the 5:30 mark?
I have never really gone out on the bike with a specific session in mind, just blast around on the mountain bike or steady road bike.



If you have power aim for 2.5-3w /kg and be as aero as possible.
If you don't have power find a looped route nearby that mimicks your course conditions and ride around it at a steady effort that relates to your IM bike effort (75-80% max hr). Average speed for a 5.30 split is 20.3 mph, you want to be holding 19mph at least on your road bike for efforts up to 2 hours at this intensity. Start with 30 mins and add 15 every 2 weeks or so til you can do it for 2 hours +.
Keep doing it once a week with a longer ride at the weekend. Progress your long ride closer to race day by including intervals at this effort (2,3,4, x 30,45,60 mins etc). get the feeling of it ingrained into your legs and mind by riding at it a hell of a lot til it becomes natural.
I used a 4.5 mile loop around a lake near where I was living, 5:25 at the outlaw.



I wouldn't say you would want to ride at below or around target Ironman pace for long periods of time especially if you are just aiming for around a 5.30 spit as this is quite a low intensity and I don't think you will really gain much physically from it.

I think you would be much better doing tempo efforts around 85-90%FTP for 20-40 minutes at a time and as you get fitter do more at this intensity until you are doing around 1h30-2 hours in your long ride. This wi make you much stronger and when combined with a Threshold session will really bring your cycling on. Then when the Ironman gets nearer maybe 10 weeks to go do a long ride around 4 hours at target pace, then again 4 weeks to go and I think you will be fine.
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I would resurrect this old thread, a bit like myself!

I have actually entered an event next year, which is a pretty good start. Down for the Outlaw and a sub 11 would be an ideal result but to be honest, my main goal is to have a good run off the bike. In my mind that would be a sub 4 run off of the bike rather than a 5 and a half hour walk, so if that gets me under 11 hours great, but not too stressed if not.

Cycling will be based around trainerroad, following the sweetspot base and then the long course triathlon build and base plans. I did the sweetspot base followed by the 40km tt plan this year and made some really good improvements as a result when tting, so I have a lot of confidence that these will work for me. I'm going to aim to get one longer ride in once a month over the winter.

As regards running, I am initially just keeping things short a sharp and doing no more than three runs per week, based on a steady 10km run, a 10km fartlek / interval session and a parkrun at the weekend with a few more kms warm up and down. For me, it seems to be the longer distances that give me injuries rather than the shorter stuff. Where possible I am going to try to run on paths, trails etc to reduce impact and hopefully avoid getting injured.

Not even thinking about swimming until at least the new year. I think I will worry about that when the local lake opens up. I suppose I could do a session a week focussing on drills but not sure it will be worth it?

Anyway, that's the plan. Come hell or high water I'll be on the startline anyway.
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SidSnot




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took heed of the advise above and went sub-11 at Outlaw this year, and was bang on a 5:30 bike split.

Aiming for the next big target at next Outlaw 2017; that's another thread Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually read this whole thread last week!

I'm doing IMUK in 2017 and although this would be an unbelievable improvement in previous races it is a 'perfect day after a perfect training year' time which we all know is unlikely.

I did UK in 2014 in 12:42 after cocking up my nutrition and having terrible stomach issues from 5k on the run. It was my 1st year in tri and 1st year owning a bike and swimming.
Swim - 1:05
Bike - 6:25
Run - 5:01
T's - 11

I did Wales this year in 13:21 but only did 3 swim, 6 bikes and 0 runs since May due to slicing my foot to the bone at Slateman so was at about 50% fitness.
Swim - 1:09
Bike - 6:59
Run - 4:49
T's - 23

If I get a solid 9 months in and get my weight down to <80kg I think I can go:
Swim - 1:05
Bike - 5:50
Run - 3:55
T's - 10

Getting the bike to 5:50 is the issue for me but I don't think it impossible.

Pipe dream maybe but every time I write it down it looks possible........

What kind of short term targets should I be looking at?
Is there a min w/kg target to ride at like 2.5+, 3+?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if you bike 5:30 and are not much under 11:00 by the finish, then your swimming/running needs more attention. I've had numerous close shaves with sub-10 with all the rides being 5:2* then running 3:3* off that (60:00 swim). So what Hammerer said about about getting close to 5:00 fitness to ride an easy 5:30 isn't that far off, so you can then have a good run.

The times when I've had a tough day on the run, have been either when I've overcooked the bike on the day (quel surprise!) or I'm undercooked on the bike training going into the race... or started the run too fast Laughing

This year I had no expectation to go sub-10 or close, due to lack of bike training, and decided to be happy with mid-10. In the end I swam 59, biked a tough windy 5:32 completely alone, then started the run far too fast (35 min for the first 5.2 miles!) and struggled badly with cramp on the rest of run, ended-up doing 4:00 run having to stop every few minutes to try and stop the cramp (10:37 finish in the end).

Okay I have a huge base, but averaging 8-10 solid hours a week is enough to net you an 'easy' sub-11 if you have established a solid base over a few years.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I think if you bike 5:30 and are not much under 11:00 by the finish, then your swimming/running needs more attention. I've had numerous close shaves with sub-10 with all the rides being 5:2* then running 3:3* off that (60:00 swim). So what Hammerer said about about getting close to 5:00 fitness to ride an easy 5:30 isn't that far off, so you can then have a good run.

The times when I've had a tough day on the run, have been either when I've overcooked the bike on the day (quel surprise!) or I'm undercooked on the bike training going into the race... or started the run too fast Laughing

This year I had no expectation to go sub-10 or close, due to lack of bike training, and decided to be happy with mid-10. In the end I swam 59, biked a tough windy 5:32 completely alone, then started the run far too fast (35 min for the first 5.2 miles!) and struggled badly with cramp on the rest of run, ended-up doing 4:00 run having to stop every few minutes to try and stop the cramp (10:37 finish in the end).

Okay I have a huge base, but averaging 8-10 solid hours a week is enough to net you an 'easy' sub-11 if you have established a solid base over a few years.


i'd need a bit more than that...probably 12 - 13 hours or so, mainly to get my swimming to a point where i can swim a reasonable time so that I am not overly fatigued on the bike...but then again I am older...
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