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Whisk




Joined: 09 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Poet. wrote:
This a nice brief read (this guy did a 16-35 10TT this summer)

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/week-training-marcin-bialoblocki-%E2%80%A8-117146


Isn't that the guy who caused controversy by riding down the middle of a dual carriageway drafting traffic?

I think many of the TT courses are literally net downhill with one turn i.e. designed to be as fast as possible. They don't really relate closely to a sporting Triathlon bike course, where NP and Average watts will vary considerably....they are in effect an FTP test on the road.


I believe he got a DQ for dangerous riding the first time he "broke" the 10 mile record. He was filmed riding down the centre line so that the overtaking HGVs had to pass him closer Shocked . "Proper" testers love a few HGVs on the course - the race of truth Wink

Don't CTT courses generally start and finish in the same place (or opposite sides of the same road) to negate any benefits from the wind and to ensure that they're not net downhill?
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FatPom




Joined: 26 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
FatPom wrote:
You should do some TTs, some of them are harder than you think. (and they're all harder than I hope Very Happy )


Anything done full-gas is hard!

I just think that doing drag-strip TTs is not particularly like doing undulating/hilly loops in a Triathlon, if people are talking about training metrics.


I agree but what I'm saying is, not all TTs are drag strips. I hate the thought of chasing PB times on DC TTs, I just like to race the course. Driving for hours, just to knock a few seconds off a particular time on known fast courses doesn't interest me at all.

I've raced most disciplines, track, road, crit, TTs, tri (pretty much everything except CX and mtb, which might change next year).

I like both sides of the coin, cycle racing and TTs are very hard but generally like tri community much better.

Life is good when you experience everything Wink
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whisk wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Poet. wrote:
This a nice brief read (this guy did a 16-35 10TT this summer)

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/week-training-marcin-bialoblocki-%E2%80%A8-117146


Isn't that the guy who caused controversy by riding down the middle of a dual carriageway drafting traffic?

I think many of the TT courses are literally net downhill with one turn i.e. designed to be as fast as possible. They don't really relate closely to a sporting Triathlon bike course, where NP and Average watts will vary considerably....they are in effect an FTP test on the road.


I believe he got a DQ for dangerous riding the first time he "broke" the 10 mile record. He was filmed riding down the centre line so that the overtaking HGVs had to pass him closer Shocked . "Proper" testers love a few HGVs on the course - the race of truth Wink

Don't CTT courses generally start and finish in the same place (or opposite sides of the same road) to negate any benefits from the wind and to ensure that they're not net downhill?


They have to finish within a certain distance of the start, but not necessarily at the same point. A good example is the R25/3 course in south Wales. If has an enormous gift hill at the start ('the bank') with a longer shallow hill after. On the return you start to climb a bit, but not back up the bank. I believe it's the fastest 25 course in the country. A couple of club mates have had day trips to try to break 50minutes. Just a shame it was blowing North Easterly hoolie both times which rather put paid to their chances.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I haven't seen it written anywhere for a while, but there was a school of thought that Z3 was 'junk' mileage; you either did Base or Threshold.

I'm not sure if the same people advocated 'sweet spot' or 'Tempo' training, but I'm pretty confident that people spend a lot of time in Z3 in an event (whether that's the bike in shorter races or the run in longer stuff).

That is pretty what Sanders approach would follow. Hard stuff, or super easy stuff. Nothing at what you'll actually end up racing at.
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Poet.




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE: TTs

That course in Wales is an abomination. (they should come and try the J2/1 or other Chelford courses...)
But, I digress...

...drag course dual carriageway courses are a suck, yes.
However, keeping aero, on the bars, for 20 minutes to 4 hours is specific to triathlon.
If you can keep in that position, at a given power, for that long, likelihood is you're going to breeze the bike leg (as tri courses are generally a little undulating and you can get out of the saddle without compromising too much on time/race position etc)

Sporting courses are great and very much like tri courses.

25TTs are parallel to an FTP test on the road, giving you a great idea of what your actual FTP is - as you're much more likely to hit a higher number on your back, than sat at home in the Wattage Cottage.

Totally agree with the Z3 comment - all that sweet spot stuff seems to be balderdash. Unless the human race has made massive physiological advances in the past decade, then stick with Dr Phil.
Sanders very much sounds like he is emulating Mark Allen, but not as well.
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PCP




Joined: 13 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
RE: TTs

That course in Wales is an abomination. (they should come and try the J2/1 or other Chelford courses...)
But, I digress...



Yep, when you've done a 25 on J2/9 or a 100 on J4/18, your arse and arms certainly know about it, never mind the legs.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:

...drag course dual carriageway courses are a suck, yes.
However, keeping aero, on the bars, for 20 minutes to 4 hours is specific to triathlon.
If you can keep in that position, at a given power, for that long, likelihood is you're going to breeze the bike leg (as tri courses are generally a little undulating and you can get out of the saddle without compromising too much on time/race position etc)

Having done my first long TTs this year as part of my plan, I wrote a little bit about this. Having done numerous HIMs, I couldnt understand why I felt so horrendous after a 50TT. Until I realised in a tri, you are constantly turning, braking, etc, and getting brief pauses from the TT position. In the first 50, I broke aero 3 times total, 2 of them being compulsory at one particular roundabout. It was an eye opening.

Holding aero for extreme durations I think really helped in Copenhagen. Having done a fairly flat 100 with sections on DCs, it made holding the position on a flat course such as Copenhagen a lot easier. It's the main reason I think I was still able to post a 5:18 despite putting out pitiful power on raceday (163 AP, 170 NP, 0.67 IF).
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I haven't seen it written anywhere for a while, but there was a school of thought that Z3 was 'junk' mileage; you either did Base or Threshold.

I'm not sure if the same people advocated 'sweet spot' or 'Tempo' training, but I'm pretty confident that people spend a lot of time in Z3 in an event (whether that's the bike in shorter races or the run in longer stuff).


Two different things here.
1. Sweet Spot v. 'Traditional' Base, I think the argument goes that traditional base more effective if this is your full time job and you have 20+ hours a week. Otherwise you need to try and reap the benefits in a shorter timeframe, that is what sweet spot is supposed to help with.
2. Training at race pace to get used to how it feels on race day. I know for running I have definitely had better results when I have included goal race pace sessions in the plan. Just running fast/slow makes race pace feel uncomfortable and forced, rather than easy and relaxed.
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I am a big fan of Sweetspot.

It is only for base but gives some very good gains from quite small amounts of training. It does provide a great platform to head into your build from.

Traditional base is just boring and I usually skipped it and headed straight into tougher stuff, which meant missed and failed sessions, with a sweet spot base it was much easier to kick into the extra gears.

Once on build and peak, I then stick to the Over or under method, in fact, it's normally always over, that way race day is easy!
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Holding aero for extreme durations I think really helped in Copenhagen. Having done a fairly flat 100 with sections on DCs, it made holding the position on a flat course such as Copenhagen a lot easier. It's the main reason I think I was still able to post a 5:18 despite putting out pitiful power on raceday (163 AP, 170 NP, 0.67 IF).


Not because the course was downhill and you used an e-bike? Very Happy

Seriously though - it's scary how 'normal' e-bikes are looking now. The new Bianchi aero road e-bike looks completely standard apart from that button on the top tube (which you could cover with a bento box). This is, and should, be a real challenge for Federations & race officials to address.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
I haven't seen it written anywhere for a while, but there was a school of thought that Z3 was 'junk' mileage; you either did Base or Threshold.

I'm not sure if the same people advocated 'sweet spot' or 'Tempo' training, but I'm pretty confident that people spend a lot of time in Z3 in an event (whether that's the bike in shorter races or the run in longer stuff).


Two different things here.
1. Sweet Spot v. 'Traditional' Base, I think the argument goes that traditional base more effective if this is your full time job and you have 20+ hours a week. Otherwise you need to try and reap the benefits in a shorter timeframe, that is what sweet spot is supposed to help with.
2. Training at race pace to get used to how it feels on race day. I know for running I have definitely had better results when I have included goal race pace sessions in the plan. Just running fast/slow makes race pace feel uncomfortable and forced, rather than easy and relaxed.


I certainly do some training in Z3. I do Tempo runs during the season. I also spend quite a while in Z3 working up to my Z4 intervals, and recovering again...as would everyone I assume! Wink

Again, I agree about 'easy' Z2 Maffetone style training being much more relevant to pros who train 30+h a week (Allen, Pigg et al). That's why Sanders doesn't do a lot of it, because he doesn't do 35h a week (~20iirc?)
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I also spend quite a while in Z3 working up to my Z4 intervals, and recovering again...as would everyone I assume! Wink

Not really. Only if you are thinking about HR. As power on the bike shows, in reality even when running, you might have a HR in z3 but your actual "input" effort can jump immediately from z1/2 to z4/5.

In that regard, it's why pace (or GAP / running power) is what I train by when running. Unless I'm trying to take it easy, in which case I might monitor HR occasionally. I only really use HR for general trends and indicators.

(EDIT - just acknowledged the wink. May have been overly serious above!)
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PCP




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far I've put off joining the Bury AC and hitting the twice weekly sessions but I was planning to do so.
Is this just un-necessary speedwork creating too much fatigue and risking injury, or will there be a big benefit to 2 sessions a week at the track?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:

(EDIT - just acknowledged the wink. May have been overly serious above!)


The wink is pertinent if people talk about Maffetone - as that is about HR, not power zones. Double wink.

When I do an 'easy' run, I will do that based on HR, definitely not pace. Pace is dependent on fitness/conditioning; therefore it's a variable. There is also a school of thought that FTP is pretty variable too, depending on daily/weekly conditioning.

There are many schools of thought!
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SGreg




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't do many easy runs but when I do it's RPE based, in fact ALL my running is RPE based.


Am I missing something here? Do people actually use HR or "power" for running, I find it so easy to gauge running intensity by RPE, I have never bothered to use anything else. Much like Swimming, it's only the bike where HR and Power come in, and even then mainly only on the turbo!
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