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The Sub 11 Ironman Thread
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 983
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
Alright, so maybe I over-egged the ratio - soz...
Name: Bike, Run
Kevin Dawson: 4:35, 3:35
Andy Sloan: 4:45, 3:47

Then, look at two other Top 10 male finishers
Eugene Grant: 5:00, 3:29
Scott Hill: 5:00, 3:23

Much more “triathlon”

I’d be interested to have a look at the flat course Euro IMs, a subset of M35-59, to find the stats out...

Check out Russ Cox's site, he has loads of data on there. I don't know if he still frequents TT but if you asked he might help.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Poet. wrote:
Alright, so maybe I over-egged the ratio - soz...
Name: Bike, Run
Kevin Dawson: 4:35, 3:35
Andy Sloan: 4:45, 3:47

Then, look at two other Top 10 male finishers
Eugene Grant: 5:00, 3:29
Scott Hill: 5:00, 3:23

Much more “triathlon”

I’d be interested to have a look at the flat course Euro IMs, a subset of M35-59, to find the stats out...


I know Scott Hill, he is a pretty good cyclist and runner... He did a 4:31 bike in Kona, followed by a 4h run


As I said, picking the high finishers from Outlaw is a small sample. Those guys you picked are all very well-balanced experienced athletes. If you look at a big Euro IM you'll find a lot more people who have a mediocre swim, bike sub-5 then blew on the run (and didn't go sub 10).

Scott has really improved in the last 5 years, but outside work, triathlon is pretty much his sole focus from what I've seen; so he's getting out what he puts in.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice day for me yesterday; biked to & from work, good 2k main swim set of Alternate 50/100 full stroke 15 s RI, averaging 1:30/100m pace. Hopefully I'm getting some swim form back again. Then after biking home, an unplanned 4km Brick run as the family were away. Felt good, except slipping on cow sh1t by a local farm in the dark, went down like a sack of spuds Rolling Eyes
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Trying to reinvent my swim technique (again)... I seem to be making progress. Getting out of the water 15-20mins behind Jorgan would give me too much work to do.


Like a kite in a hurricane Twisted Evil Very Happy
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
Trying to reinvent my swim technique (again)... I seem to be making progress. Getting out of the water 15-20mins behind Jorgan would give me too much work to do.


Like a kite in a hurricane Twisted Evil Very Happy


Better get my swim sorted then Laughing
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
Trying to reinvent my swim technique (again)... I seem to be making progress. Getting out of the water 15-20mins behind Jorgan would give me too much work to do.


Like a kite in a hurricane Twisted Evil Very Happy


Laughing
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First FTP test since Feb..... FTP gone down from 297 to 276

Some of this is due to old Turbo Trainer, the Bushido was always a little optimistic, now replaced with Tacx Flux however, didn't expect that much drop, lots to do in the off season to get my FTP back up

One forgets just how brutal the ftp test is. I went off too hard, trying to hit my numbers, almost gave up after 5 minutes, had to ease off to recover, but put in a decent push, over 300w for the final 5 minutes
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
First FTP test since Feb..... FTP gone down from 297 to 276

Some of this is due to old Turbo Trainer, the Bushido was always a little optimistic, now replaced with Tacx Flux however, didn't expect that much drop, lots to do in the off season to get my FTP back up

One forgets just how brutal the ftp test is. I went off too hard, trying to hit my numbers, almost gave up after 5 minutes, had to ease off to recover, but put in a decent push, over 300w for the final 5 minutes


Just completed a test too, using the Trainerroad ramp test. A massive 2w increase to 275w. Pretty pleased with that as I haven’t really done anything too structured in the last few months. I’m not going to worry about hitting any particular numbers, just aiming to be consistent over the winter.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
First FTP test since Feb..... FTP gone down from 297 to 276

Some of this is due to old Turbo Trainer, the Bushido was always a little optimistic, now replaced with Tacx Flux however, didn't expect that much drop, lots to do in the off season to get my FTP back up

One forgets just how brutal the ftp test is. I went off too hard, trying to hit my numbers, almost gave up after 5 minutes, had to ease off to recover, but put in a decent push, over 300w for the final 5 minutes


Couple of comments. Don't you have a power meter? As such, shouldn't the turbo you were using be irrelevant, other than relative inertial differences that might have a small impact depending on your pedal style?

In terms of pacing, I would suggest that (assuming it was a 20 minute test), the way you executed would imply the output is probably quite a bit wrong. If you had to back off substantially but then were able to push 300W for the final 5mins, there's too much volatility in that execution.

It's the main flaw with the 20 minute test ... the fact you need to pretty much know your FTP before starting to enable you to accurately execute. And then it takes quite a lot out of you meaning it's tough to re-test. It's why I've gone down their newly recommended route of the ramp test, as that requires no prior knowledge of your fitness and if you wanted to (not that it would be necessary), I reckon you could do one every week without any impact on your training. I did one the night before a key 6hr IM training ride in the summer, and had no ill effects on that main ride. There's no doubt flaws with that test as well, but it's repeatable and so should still give relative performance improvement / decline.
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Doca




Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Dawson was a top level cyclist, medaling at the national time trial championships. His cycling is much better than his swim or run.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the ramp test effectively the Conconi ramp test?
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 587
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
First FTP test since Feb..... FTP gone down from 297 to 276

Some of this is due to old Turbo Trainer, the Bushido was always a little optimistic, now replaced with Tacx Flux however, didn't expect that much drop, lots to do in the off season to get my FTP back up

One forgets just how brutal the ftp test is. I went off too hard, trying to hit my numbers, almost gave up after 5 minutes, had to ease off to recover, but put in a decent push, over 300w for the final 5 minutes


Couple of comments. Don't you have a power meter? As such, shouldn't the turbo you were using be irrelevant, other than relative inertial differences that might have a small impact depending on your pedal style?

In terms of pacing, I would suggest that (assuming it was a 20 minute test), the way you executed would imply the output is probably quite a bit wrong. If you had to back off substantially but then were able to push 300W for the final 5mins, there's too much volatility in that execution.

It's the main flaw with the 20 minute test ... the fact you need to pretty much know your FTP before starting to enable you to accurately execute. And then it takes quite a lot out of you meaning it's tough to re-test. It's why I've gone down their newly recommended route of the ramp test, as that requires no prior knowledge of your fitness and if you wanted to (not that it would be necessary), I reckon you could do one every week without any impact on your training. I did one the night before a key 6hr IM training ride in the summer, and had no ill effects on that main ride. There's no doubt flaws with that test as well, but it's repeatable and so should still give relative performance improvement / decline.


The Quarq Elisa on my TT bike packed up a month ago, luckily it is in warranty so being sent off for repair. I could have switched my Assioma Pedals off my other bike, but couldn't be bothered to do it, so ended up doing ftp using the Tacx built in power meter. Last time I did an ftp, it was on my old bike that was permanently attached to the Turbo, and it didn´t have a power meter, I did all of my training over the winter using the built in PM in the Bushido

I will try the ramp test as it does sound interesting. As you point out, my effort was all over the place. I used Zwift's FTP test, part of the build was 5 mins at 305w, which I managed without issue, however, when it came to the actual FTP, I was struggling to hang on close to 300w.
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Poet.




Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just building up to 15*100s...not swam in five days.
Knocked this out at lunch;

13*100s as;
2*100m pull buoy warm up
9*100m in 1:30 off 1:45
1:28, 1:24, 1:28, 1:29, 1:27, 1:31, 1:32, 1:28, 1:26
2*100m pull buoy cool down

Better learn how to pace my efforts!
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tuckandgo




Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 421

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
First FTP test since Feb..... FTP gone down from 297 to 276

Some of this is due to old Turbo Trainer, the Bushido was always a little optimistic, now replaced with Tacx Flux however, didn't expect that much drop, lots to do in the off season to get my FTP back up

One forgets just how brutal the ftp test is. I went off too hard, trying to hit my numbers, almost gave up after 5 minutes, had to ease off to recover, but put in a decent push, over 300w for the final 5 minutes


Don't worry about it. My FTP fluctuates every year from about 250 to near 290 on race day (unless I am doing crazy IF in my races Smile )
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 15755
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
First FTP test since Feb..... FTP gone down from 297 to 276

Some of this is due to old Turbo Trainer, the Bushido was always a little optimistic, now replaced with Tacx Flux however, didn't expect that much drop, lots to do in the off season to get my FTP back up

One forgets just how brutal the ftp test is. I went off too hard, trying to hit my numbers, almost gave up after 5 minutes, had to ease off to recover, but put in a decent push, over 300w for the final 5 minutes


Couple of comments. Don't you have a power meter? As such, shouldn't the turbo you were using be irrelevant, other than relative inertial differences that might have a small impact depending on your pedal style?

In terms of pacing, I would suggest that (assuming it was a 20 minute test), the way you executed would imply the output is probably quite a bit wrong. If you had to back off substantially but then were able to push 300W for the final 5mins, there's too much volatility in that execution.

It's the main flaw with the 20 minute test ... the fact you need to pretty much know your FTP before starting to enable you to accurately execute. And then it takes quite a lot out of you meaning it's tough to re-test. It's why I've gone down their newly recommended route of the ramp test, as that requires no prior knowledge of your fitness and if you wanted to (not that it would be necessary), I reckon you could do one every week without any impact on your training. I did one the night before a key 6hr IM training ride in the summer, and had no ill effects on that main ride. There's no doubt flaws with that test as well, but it's repeatable and so should still give relative performance improvement / decline.


The 20 minute test is flawed in many ways, but can still serve a purpose.

The advantage of a ramp test with lactate testing is that you can call it a day once you have established the key data if you wish which makes it very efficient (and less fatiguing). It is also reliable, repeatable and valid up to a point...
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