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The Sub 11 Ironman Thread
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 2049

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
stenard - top table. 95rpm (+-5rpm) at Level 10 air brake (the slider on the flywheel) is 260W (+-5W), which is bang on what I was doing today.
I only used the magnets for the 1:00 MMP test and 15s power.

Yeah, I get that. I was just saying that all my experience of wattbikes is nothing like achieving that power at magnetic resistance 1. Ultimately I don't really care - I see the training RPE as comparable to my power meter which is what matters.

Poet. wrote:
200W AP is nonsense though, isnít it? Much better using NP, plus thereís surely a drafting benefit at Bahrain?
With Bahrain being quite flat, I'm guessing that the AP is pretty similar to the NP, giving a low VI?

Nonsense? As you say, on a flat course AP and NP will be broadly aligned, so they're effectively one and the same. NP is obviously more representative on a hilly ride, but even in a hillier race I wouldn't expect them to deviate by huge amounts.

For the record, I did 197 AP, 203 NP, so VI of 1.03.

You're right about some speed factors in Bahrain, but it was still less watts that I've done at Cotswold (I'd say I'm fitter, but just now now overcooking myself for the run) to ride under 2:30. Again, 50+ more watts would knock a significant chunk off my time and have a bike split in the top 10. My main point however was how high 250W being "easy" implies your FTP might actually be. I wouldn't even say lengthy intervals at 200W feels "easy" with my 250 FTP.

Poet. wrote:
I rode ~4hrs in Sunday (yes, with the wind) at 188W AP, 230W NP (18% zero power)
It was an easy ride, I was very surprised - shame the HR battery died after an hour or so.

That's quite a disparity between the two, which implies quite a lot of surging and efforts probably upwards of 350W or more. I personally wouldnt consider that an "easy" ride. Obviously the numbers are different as you're putting out way more power, but my last big IM ride was 6hrs with the middle 3hrs being 3*(20mins at IM power, 20mins at HIM power, 20mins easier). Those rides were tough, and I was only doing 138 AP, 160NP for the 6hrs.

Poet. wrote:
To clarify, 250W for the ride out to the start felt easy due to a number of factors:
1) New bike
2) New pedals
3) New shoes
4) MASSIVE tailwind assisted, so loving the free speed
5) Second time invited on the "A" group ride, so didn't want to embarrass myself

But none of those things change your physiological ability to produce power. 250W is 250W, regardless of whether you are going faster or wearing comfier shoes. I accept RPE might "feel" easier, but my experience is that having a "good day" can maybe make a 5-10W difference at most. You seemed to be implying the wattbike and the pedals were miles off one another? Maybe I misinterpreted.

Ultimately though, 250W feeling easy is pretty promising for you, whatever the reason. Unless you are as aero as a brick! Wink
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18164
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
200W AP is nonsense though, isnít it? Much better using NP, plus thereís surely a drafting benefit at Bahrain?
With Bahrain being quite flat, I'm guessing that the AP is pretty similar to the NP, giving a low VI?


Yeah, on flat courses there shouldn't be much difference; I always use NP anyway though.

Poet. wrote:
shame the HR battery died after an hour or so
Is that the cheap Decathlon strap you were recommending Wink

Poet. wrote:
Not fibbing, just Jorgan is getting worried Wink


How tall are you and how much do you weigh at the moment? (I don't want to hear about your projections Very Happy )
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Poet.




Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 390

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweet Cheeses!
That is a lot of complex quotes Wink

I'll try to address them...

stenard - I concur with your experience of WattBikes, at the end of the day it is all about RPE, for experienced/trained athletes.
I did believe the pedals and WattBike to be miles apart, as the CP20 test I did on the WattBike at 264W felt massively hard, compared to doing 250W out on the road...this is what got me thinking of doing the comparison, only to find out they're broadly aligned.

Nonsense? Reading that back, it sounds harsh! But you got the drift of it, phew!

200W *felt* easy, endurance zone for me is 146-198, tempo is 199-238. Give or take a few watts and 200W is not unreasonable.

Yes, Sunday's ride had some nice village sprints and "uphill" efforts.
Best 20 minute power was 236W, average W/kg was 2
TSS was 294, IF was 0.88 (which is where 3-4hr rides should be, 88-93% of FTP)
10km splits (NP/AP)
0- 10km 253/208
10- 20km 230/120
20- 30km 206/144
30- 40km 253/203
40- 50km 231/213
50- 60km 253/225
60- 70km 230/180
70- 80km 225/191
80- 90km 229/175
90-100km 225/151
100-106km 204/112

There was a ferocious headwind, so I just went to the front and remained there from 30km-60km. The "hills" were all before 30km.

But, yes, it is my FTP that is incorrect, not the WattBike.
I am happy that my FTP is likely higher, but unhappy at the prospect of another test Sad

Thanks Very Happy

Jorgan - Strap is a cheap one, yes, Decathlon had sold out.
I might buy a proper one if I get a full time job Wink
I'm 184cm and 80.2kg today.
I was a bit shorter and lighter after the ride on Sunday (183cm and 79.7kg)

For the record, I'm going with my FTP being the same as my CP20, not making the 5% reduction (until I can test again), so the current hypothesis is that my FTP is 264W.

For the record, this is currently 3.3W/Kg...bike calculator show us that...
~3.3W/kg = sub hour 25TT for 183cm, ~79.7kg, aerobars, flat course, no wind, tubulars, 15.448m of elevation (J2/9 course), 18 degrees, bike weight of 8.6kg (Exocet II unladen weight)

Uh-oh! Someone is getting fit again...halfIRONWAR!
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Davem




Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 6152
Location: Out of retirement...

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fcku me... this all sounds very technical


I went out and did 2 hours. Up some hills. Down some hills.

no idea how far it was. No power meter, no speedo, no HR.

I'm still the same height I was last year. I haven't been on the scales for a year (the ex nicked the last set) but can still get in my size 34 waist jeans.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1881
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back up to 10hrs last week.
1 swim. Keeping it simple with lots of short reps. Making come small gains and technique feels better. Missed a session owing to an unplanned late night, the night before and decided a rest would be more productive.

3 bike sessions. 2 x 1hr TrainerRoad on the wattbike. The ftp test I did last week was wrong and itís definately too low. Going to nudge it up manually over the next couple of weeks and see how it goes. 60 miles on the tt bike yesterday as itís the first tt in 2 weeks so decided to blow the cobwebs off it. Not particularly fast but a steady ride, in the circumstances. (NP 215w). Plus another 30ish miles of gentle commuting, trying not to get mown down by people on electric bikes Rolling Eyes

2 runs. 1x8km, 1x12km. Very steady. Not injured so happy with that and not feeling too bad at the end.

This weeks going to be much the same but Iíll make sure I hit the second swim. I really felt it this morning as it was a week since my last one. And Iím going to hit the dizzy heights of three runs.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1062
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK week for me in the end, 9:49.

2x bike, one turbo and 84km ride yesterday with some decent hills (Norwood Edge and Cow and Calf) with my winter bike gearing had me grinding up them.
2x swims, with a good masters session
4x running, none of them long, the longest being 15km.

Happy enough with that although missed one swim, one bike and a gym session.
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Poet




Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 10106
Location: Your Mum

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recovery week for me last week.

Swim: Hit my three swim aim for the week, only 1.2km sets, but getting up to 2.5km eventually...just 51mins actual swim time (66mins including rest)

Bike: Quite a few sessions here, logged 5hrs on the bike, all easy stuff

Run: Ticking over, but a bit slower and felt sluggish, still, hit three session for 1hr 42mins

Let's say 7.5hrs for that, which is bang on.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1881
Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another 10.5hrs last week, so being super consistent, which makes a nice change. Cool

Best thing was getting 3 runs in, including a 13m steady run; first time Iíve gone that far in a very long time and felt pretty comfortable with no aches or pains.

This week is a recovery week, so shorter sessions planned Monday to Friday but will aim to get a longer bike in on Sunday. Should be around 8-9 hours planned.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 838
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hit by a nasty cold, so bailed out of my long Saturday ride, snow and ice preventing commuting on the bike, so only managed 8.5 hours.

However, did manage to run almost 50km, and very happy with my steady running pace
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Poet




Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 10106
Location: Your Mum

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
Best thing was getting 3 runs in, including a 13m steady run; first time Iíve gone that far in a very long time and felt pretty comfortable with no aches or pains.


YEAH YEAH BOI!!!
Good work Very Happy

Nice week for me last week at 12hrs 43mins:

3 swims: with one in the 25m pool. Decent (for me) time of 1hr 20mins
4 bikes: FTP test, 2hr IMUK recce on FulGaz, 3hr easy outdoor ride, 3.5hr hilly ride of doom
3 runs: 800s run, easy jog with the dog, "long" 10km run

trying to repeat this week, but "the numbers" are telling me I'm in a hole!
102 CTL
144 ATL
-41 TSB

:'(
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1062
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last week was a bit frustrating as I was a few sessions short because life and a swim gala got in my way. However, it was a recovery week so back on it now. On the plus side, this already the best January of training I have had.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18164
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My (free) TP account says I have a new Threshold HR after my 30-min Treadmill run yesterday (144). I had it at 140, which when you take into account cardiac drift of being in a hot gym, then I wonder if an outdoor guided Lactate test would yield a lower number.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
My (free) TP account says I have a new Threshold HR after my 30-min Treadmill run yesterday (144). I had it at 140, which when you take into account cardiac drift of being in a hot gym, then I wonder if an outdoor guided Lactate test would yield a lower number.

Do you have your own test kit?
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18164
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
My (free) TP account says I have a new Threshold HR after my 30-min Treadmill run yesterday (144). I had it at 140, which when you take into account cardiac drift of being in a hot gym, then I wonder if an outdoor guided Lactate test would yield a lower number.

Do you have your own test kit?


Kit as in bloods? No, this is just what TP uses, the 30 min 'test' much like a CP20; which it has obviously 'auto detected'. Some Garmins have a guided ramp test, which you need to use GPS for. Neither is as technical as blood lactate.
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did wonder. I was thinking of you doing a track session and someone taking blood from your ear every couple of laps as you speed up.
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