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Bike V Run efforts

 
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mw22




Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Bike V Run efforts Reply with quote

I'd say my Bike/Run abilities are fairly similar... just as a reference;
10 mile TT: 24:20
5k run: 18:30s (freak PB of low 18 once)

So last night Turbo on sufferfest, 35 min chunk around threshold. Was uncomfortabley comfortable from the off, 2 mins to go I'm feeling at my limit, the sickness feeling was there, making some odd sounds but I carried on - with 20 secs to go it ramped right up - I hung on and completed the final sprint, barely able to turn the pedals in the cooldown.

Last Sat at parkrun ran a 18:37, it hurt from 1km in, consistently paced, finish straight comes with about 500m to go.... I can't wind it up, can't push myself to hurt in the same way I do on the bike. Whilst its an effort I'm not doubled over ready to be sick like other runners - or like I can push on the bike.

Why the difference? Mental or physical? If there's other people to run in with I can push a fraction more, but still not comparable.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 15865
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Bike V Run efforts Reply with quote

mw22 wrote:
I'd say my Bike/Run abilities are fairly similar... just as a reference;
10 mile TT: 24:20
5k run: 18:30s (freak PB of low 18 once)

So last night Turbo on sufferfest, 35 min chunk around threshold. Was uncomfortabley comfortable from the off, 2 mins to go I'm feeling at my limit, the sickness feeling was there, making some odd sounds but I carried on - with 20 secs to go it ramped right up - I hung on and completed the final sprint, barely able to turn the pedals in the cooldown.

Last Sat at parkrun ran a 18:37, it hurt from 1km in, consistently paced, finish straight comes with about 500m to go.... I can't wind it up, can't push myself to hurt in the same way I do on the bike. Whilst its an effort I'm not doubled over ready to be sick like other runners - or like I can push on the bike.

Why the difference? Mental or physical? If there's other people to run in with I can push a fraction more, but still not comparable.


Both, probably...but, without enough information to provide a complete answer, it is probable that you would benefit from factoring in some high intensity running sets...but this would really depend on your objectives...
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mw22




Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedwork on running has been lacking as I've spent the last few months sorting out a very recurring Achilles issue. But now that is behind me, done a few reps/interval/hill sessions with run club....
BUT even in a club environment, doing the run stuff I can regularly fade off at the end (both timed and distance efforts) rather than make it hurt.
But give me something like a strava segment on bike (so removing the inside/turbo variable).... I can again push it in a way that "feels" harder).

Just checking HR stats (tho they are using different bands, so I don't really cross compare).
parkrun avg: 182 peak: 192 (warm up done separately)
Turbo: 170 peak: 185 (if take out warm up and cooldown)

Will try the same band on next effort.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mw22 wrote:
Speedwork on running has been lacking as I've spent the last few months sorting out a very recurring Achilles issue. But now that is behind me, done a few reps/interval/hill sessions with run club....
BUT even in a club environment, doing the run stuff I can regularly fade off at the end (both timed and distance efforts) rather than make it hurt.
But give me something like a strava segment on bike (so removing the inside/turbo variable).... I can again push it in a way that "feels" harder).

Just checking HR stats (tho they are using different bands, so I don't really cross compare).
parkrun avg: 182 peak: 192 (warm up done separately)
Turbo: 170 peak: 185 (if take out warm up and cooldown)

Will try the same band on next effort.


what are you expecting to hurt?
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mw22




Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair question Very Happy
I'm just expecting to be able to feel the affects similarly... so end of a bike effort;
- Gasping for breath
- Edge of vomitting
- Unable to pedal
- Hanging on to bars so I don't fall off
Basically just f**ked.... which I see others doing running.

You see people push themselves to the point of being sick, cross the line and so exhausted they are lying on the floor. I'm not suggesting I want to make myself ill, I just seem to have that extra gear of hurt on the bike - where as running I'm somehow stopping myself going into that level of pain/discomfort. I know its only making a few seconds difference - but going back to earlier point, Id just like to understand where on the phsyical/mental scale this blocker is coming from.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mw22 wrote:
Fair question Very Happy
I'm just expecting to be able to feel the affects similarly... so end of a bike effort;
- Gasping for breath
- Edge of vomitting
- Unable to pedal
- Hanging on to bars so I don't fall off
Basically just f**ked.... which I see others doing running.

You see people push themselves to the point of being sick, cross the line and so exhausted they are lying on the floor. I'm not suggesting I want to make myself ill, I just seem to have that extra gear of hurt on the bike - where as running I'm somehow stopping myself going into that level of pain/discomfort. I know its only making a few seconds difference - but going back to earlier point, Id just like to understand where on the phsyical/mental scale this blocker is coming from.


yep, park run in particular is host to lots of people running 5k with very poor form...if every there was a stage for outcome over process, this is it...

It sounds more psychological* than physiological, but, if you can ran that fast without destroying yourself then that's fab...you will need less time to recover and can return to effective training more quickly than those who have destroyed themselves...

There is some research on why this is the case*, but in part it is becoming accustomed to progressively working beyond your comfortable pace whilst retaining good form...
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 631
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible that you are a better runner than cyclist? My 5k pb is 19:45, while I can do a 10 mile time trial in under 22m. At the end of a fast 5km run, you have emptied the tank completely, but at the end of a ride, you still have a bit left for a final push
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mw22




Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly. Think in Tri races I often over egg the bike and so run position is somewhat compromised.

I think with the 5ks - parkrun has allowed me to do ALOT. So I know the pace I can hold. I've only done a fraction of TTs in comparison (and thats training TTs nothing official). So another factor possibly.

Still last week I made a real effort on some 400m intervals... and have now aggravated my ever recurring Achilles injury. Sad
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mw22 wrote:
Possibly. Think in Tri races I often over egg the bike and so run position is somewhat compromised.

I think with the 5ks - parkrun has allowed me to do ALOT. So I know the pace I can hold. I've only done a fraction of TTs in comparison (and thats training TTs nothing official). So another factor possibly.

Still last week I made a real effort on some 400m intervals... and have now aggravated my ever recurring Achilles injury. Sad


yep...the point is that you shouldn't suddenly make a 'real effort'
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 631
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mw22 wrote:
Possibly. Think in Tri races I often over egg the bike and so run position is somewhat compromised.

I think with the 5ks - parkrun has allowed me to do ALOT. So I know the pace I can hold. I've only done a fraction of TTs in comparison (and thats training TTs nothing official). So another factor possibly.

Still last week I made a real effort on some 400m intervals... and have now aggravated my ever recurring Achilles injury. Sad


I think that most (if not all) of my running injuries can be traced back to Parkrun. I tend to train at 4:30 to 4:40/km pace, unfortunately I do have the fitness to and competitive instinct run a decent Parkrun, however running at 3:55/km tends to do damage

This year I am jointing a track session once per week to develop a bit more resilience running at a higher pace
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Poet.




Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 327

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Bike V Run efforts Reply with quote

mw22 wrote:
...I'm not doubled over ready to be sick like other runners...


They've probably had a few jars on the Friday night.
Anyway, parkrun isn't a race, it's a timed event Wink
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FatPom




Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 5326
Location: My happy place

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we're on the subject, how come I can run 20km without water if I have to but anything other than a balls out TT sees me swiggin like a goodun on the bike Confused
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