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Half Iron bike power level advice please
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smarkgee




Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 384
Location: TW11

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Half Iron bike power level advice please Reply with quote

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Half Iron bike power level advice please
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I should be able to do a particular half iron bike in 3 to 3 and a half hours as I've done that before on the same HIM course.

this time round I have a power meter and I'm a bit better aerobically conditioned.

My summer-best power average for 3-3.5 hours on JUST a bike-ride was 200-210w and that was part of a 5 hour group ride-cum-race.

EDIT - IE CP180 is no more than 220w.

Obviously I want to save something for the HM at the end.

I find pacing based on lap/30s average power difficult and prefer a 'cap' to my efforts on hills.

Bearing in mind hills, what would be your recommendation on the LEVEL of power to target for the race

eg cap at 230w
eg target 30 minute lap average as 200w
eg something else

many thanks


Last edited by smarkgee on Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did research for this before Weymouth 70.3. In a similar vein to the TraingPeaks article on full distance recommended TSS, for a HIM a number of resources were suggesting 180 TSS as the sensible value for a HIM.

You then need to back solve the TSS calculation to work out your target IF/NP.

TSS = IF^2 * Time (hours) * 100

So, for 180 TSS, and a 3.25hr ride time (splitting the time range you gave), you'd be looking at roughly an IF of 0.75, where IF = NP/FTP. You then need to consider whether you can achieve that race time at that suggested power output.

The only piece of advice I can give is follow the numbers! I did Weymouth 70.3 on Sunday, had a plan, completely ignored it, and the last 17k of the run was the most painful experience I've had to date in triathlon.

My plan would have failed anyway I think, as I didnt realise how tough the bike course was and so my IF target of 0.8 would have been too high as the bike would have taken me much longer than planned, but as it was, I got carried away and blasted around with a final IF of 0.92, and TSS of 246.

At least I have now learnt my lesson.
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TRO Saracen




Joined: 18 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

70-75% FTP for Ironman. 80-85% FTP for HIM.

Where I am in that range depends on:
- course difficulty (wales = 6 hour bike so lower, Barcelona = 5 hour bike so in the upper range)
- feel/HR on the day - prepare to adjust usually downwards if the target power feels too hard or the HR is too high

I did Weymouth and Exmoor 70.3's around 81-82% and ran well both times.

I had hoped to go a bit harder on the bike at Weymouth but did this only with a 2 day mini taper and 83-4% felt a bit hard, also lost the small ring (could not change back up so stayed in big ring) so had to grind up hills in 55-25 so for both those reasons backed off a bit. Ran 1:31 and 11th to 7th in AG so called it right.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either way, you need your FTP instead of an arbitrary single ride effort not on the same course or distance, and in a group. Hard to read anything in to that.

If you post your FTP and the HIM course you are doing chances are someone on here will be able to give you almost exactly your target.
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smarkgee




Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's at Hever and the 5 hour ride was around Surrey hills...so comparable

I am better trained at sub-1 hour. My FTP is >276w at the moment. So 80%ftp gives >221w. That is too much for me, especially with hills. ie more than the recent PB for 3-3.5hrs.

Do you guys really use the IF / NP things on your PMs during races?

If you rely on NP/IF then how do you approach tackling a hill where you will might have to go WELL over FTP, do you hope/plan to recover the average afterwards? (that only works so many times for me)

TY!!!!!
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's the exact point with NP/IF. It's trying to compute the physiological cost of your effort, so penalises surges / "match burning".

I'm surprised that you have an FTP near 280w yet are anticipating a time potentially around 3.5hrs. You're looking at 1500m of climbing on that route. Weymouth on Sunday was 1000m. I had only 202w NP / 182w AP (FTP 220), and finished the bike in 2:55.

Unless you are significantly heavier than me (70kg), then even factoring in the additional climbing (I've only done Hever Oly 3 times, never the Gauntlet, but the Weymouth route struck me as very similar to the terrain around Hever), I would have thought with your FTP you should be under 3hrs? Strava shows a few people at or under 200w for a lap in the 1hr20 region.

EDIT - to add, based on my recent Weymouth (hellish) experience, I would also go even lower on the target power with the knowledge of the hilly trail run that Hever has.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRO Saracen wrote:

I had hoped to go a bit harder on the bike at Weymouth but did this only with a 2 day mini taper and 83-4% felt a bit hard, also lost the small ring (could not change back up so stayed in big ring) so had to grind up hills in 55-25 so for both those reasons backed off a bit. Ran 1:31 and 11th to 7th in AG so called it right.

Super impressed with your bike split factoring in the above. Hills are definitely not my strength, which is where I think I went so wrong, but even in my lowest gear (34-25) I was grinding up some of the climbs. I don't even think I could have got up them in 55-25 so to run well off that mechanical issue, on that course, is seriously good.

Did you do Exmoor this year as well? I think my (comparative) lack of bike miles this year really caught up with me on Sunday. Marathon training for my first one for the first 4 months of the year has meant I've been playing catch up ever since. Sunday was actually my longest single ride of the year! Shocked
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smarkgee




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:

I'm surprised that you have an FTP near 280w yet are anticipating a time potentially around 3.5hrs. You're looking at 1500m of climbing on that route. Weymouth on Sunday was 1000m. I had only 202w NP / 182w AP (FTP 220), and finished the bike in 2:55.

Unless you are significantly heavier than me (70kg), then even factoring in the additional climbing (I've only done Hever Oly 3 times, never the Gauntlet, but the Weymouth route struck me as very similar to the terrain around Hever), I would have thought with your FTP you should be under 3hrs? Strava shows a few people at or under 200w for a lap in the 1hr20 region.

EDIT - to add, based on my recent Weymouth (hellish) experience, I would also go even lower on the target power with the knowledge of the hilly trail run that Hever has.


nope. 70kg too and the 276 ftp IS current.
just checked garmin: for my 5 hour ride the NP was 230w and IF based on an incorrect 264w setting. when I last did the hever my FTP would have been higher than now BUT I didn't do much (any!) long stuff then.

I am confidentish I could do the bike in less than 3 hours based on the training I've been doing BUT I am concerned about the run which I found very hard last time as the bike did me in. that's why I want to get the bike 'right'

I did use an alloy bike last time. this time carbon .


Last edited by smarkgee on Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can do 5hrs at 230, then <3hrs at 210-220 (0.76-0.8 IF) doesnt seem excessive. You would just need to be disciplined on the climbs and try and spin up as best as possible. Something I didnt do.
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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smarkgee wrote:
I am confidentish I could do the bike in less than 3 hours based on the training I've been doing BUT I am concerned about the run which I found very hard last time as the bike did me in. that's why I want to get the bike 'right'

In that case you might need to pay more attention to feel rather than a number. I started IM Copenhagen last year based on a number and stuck to it for about 100k, then had to completely overhaul my plan as it simply felt too hard on the day. It sounds like you know what "too hard" feels like. Drop it 20-25w from that and it'll be close.

As for hills, read up on "burning matches". I tend to fancy hilly stuff but only get worried when I go past 400w. Current FTP is probably 250-270w or so but was 300w last year at the X. At that race I burnt 8 matches above 400w peaking at 700w for the biggest. But as you say, you need to count those and spend them wisely. But you can train to have more if you think that is what you require.

smarkgee wrote:
I did use an alloy bike last time. this time carbon .
That's all very fine, but is it red? Wink
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crumpy




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
If you can do 5hrs at 230, then <3hrs at 210-220 (0.76-0.8 IF) doesnt seem excessive. You would just need to be disciplined on the climbs and try and spin up as best as possible. Something I didnt do.


Totally agree with disciplined on climbs. This still means you can go over FTP for a few climbs as long as it is not into deep red.

My FTP is 265 watts. When I race HIM, allow up to c.300 watts on climbs. Normalised power, keep around 225 watts for an IF of 0.85. That still means a sub 1.30 half mara on a flattish run course.

P.S. 3.5hrs at 225 watts for 70kg seems way too slow
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PCP




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like you have aerodynamic issues.
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sbezza




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hills aren't too bad, just get the right gearing where you can spin up them a bit easier. At your weight and FTP you should be under 3 hours unless you are as aero as a brick.

I weigh morethan you and with a NP of 220W managed the Bastion route in 5:35, it is essentially the same route but 3 times round with an extra hill for fun. Like stenard said if you can do a 5 hour training ride at 230NP then you are not going to have any issues doing <3 hours at 210-220 to be honest

The only hill you really might go over FTP is Groombridge Hill, and that is only the start of it where it suddenly ramps up.

Using NP/IF is a good way to make sure you don't overcook it, but also put a cap on the max power as well.
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andyjsg




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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to stay steady at Weymouth and ended up 221 avg/250 np which is 0.85 IF/1.13 VI according to training peaks. The biggest issue for me is at 80Kg and 39/26 lowest gear I had to put out 400+ watts to get up a couple of the hills and the last one hurt. I didnt run very well either although I think that was more to do with cramp in my calves than feeling tired, my avg HR during the run was 146 so basically jogging.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
but as it was, I got carried away and blasted around with a final IF of 0.92, and TSS of 246.


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