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run help needed - calling giantman
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neil montgomery




Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 486
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:31 pm    Post subject: run help needed - calling giantman Reply with quote

Giantman

I was going to send this as a pm but I'm sure others will beneift from your answer:

This is my first 'proper' season and the run is my weakest link. I can do the distance (did 8 miles at ten min per mile last night without a problem, deliberately slower than normal as I'm trying to shed some pounds) but I want to run fast.

Can you post some gems here for anyone in the same boat as me. I am running the Manchester 10k at the end of May and want to be doing 8 min miles at worst.

Can you help??!

Thanks Neil
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flyingelephant




Joined: 22 Mar 2004
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Location: Deepest Darkest Devon / Kn0b freezing Norway

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to do fartlets.
Run slow then fast then slow etc in training. This will improve your speed. It's no good just jogging along, your speed will not improve much at all.
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AndyS




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you don't mind me butting it! Of course anything I say if superseded by GM!

Looking at the Orca site: http://www.orca.co.nz/training_calculators.asp

It says 8min/mile equals a 10k time of 50 minutes. Not as daft as my ‘plucked out the air’ figure of 40 minutes!

Anyway, here’s my understanding of running. You’re moving an object, you, across a distance, 10k. The strength needed to move that object is constant across different speeds. IE, if you can comfortable run 10k then you’ve developed the muscle to achieve your goals. However, you need to get them muscles working faster by developing your nervous system. To do that you need to run much shorter distances at a faster pace.

This means your week will split up into different sections. You’ll have your long run where you maintain your ability to cover the distance and a short, fast run to improve speed. You can mix in speed with a longer run by sprinting between trees, or 'run the bends jog the straights' type of thing. Obviously this is pretty basic (like me) but the key is to introduce faster runs.

The same with swimming, if you swim very short distances, say one length, at a fast pace your overall swim speed will improve. Probably same with the bike too.
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Daz




Joined: 15 May 2003
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Location: Hampton, London

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can try
-intervals/fartleks/track sessions
-hill intervals
-cross-training (not just cycling) to develop other muscles eg racquet sports
-leg weights (2x12 for hard, 1x25 for easy)
-the pose technique
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neil montgomery




Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 486
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone - that'll be interval training that you're all recommending then? Sounds like good honest hard work but I'll give it a go anyway.

Darryl, I've heard about the pose - where is a good place for me to read about it?

Thanks again
Neil
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Daz




Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 11694
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neil,
just found a few links but i think this one is the best esp as dr romanov (who invented it) sometimes turns up on the forum:
http://www.posetech.com/

also you occasionaly get a thread on runners world discussing it. here is the latest:
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/forummessages.asp?dt=4&UTN=8237&srchdte=0&last=1&V=6&SP=
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Stealth Attack




Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 6891
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't really add much to what has been said already. As a matter of general principle, always remember that the body is inherently lazy and will only adapt to the extent of the new stresses that you place on it. Running ten minute miles will not therefore magically enable you to run a 10km at 8 minute pace. So, as others have said, you need to run for set distances at the fatser pace; recover, and start all over again. Assuming that you do a 10km training run, use the first 3-4 mins as a warm up at your ten minute a mile pace. Then quicken the pace to eight minute miling and hold that speed for as long as possible. You may only manage half a mile or a mile. It doesn't matter. Just jog to recover and when you have recovered, start running at 8 minute pace again. Just keep repeating this until you finish the 10km. Let's assume that you were running at 8 minute pace for 10 of the 50 mins it took you to finish the run. It maight not sound much, but stick with it, and I'll guarantee that within weeks this will start to creep up to 15 - 20 minutes. If you want to re-infirce this type of speed training, then back it up with long interval work, say 5 x 1 mile at 8 minute pace with full recovery. Always remember that for every second you are running faster than before, you are placing new stresses on your body which, given the necessary rest and recovery, will enable you to hold that faster pace for longer and with less exertion. Running training without any speed work, whether fartlek or intervals, is, IMHO, a recipe for stagnation and under-achievement. But others will of course have other ideas!

Giantman
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neil montgomery




Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone who replied. I'll let you know of progress. Just the bike and swim to worry about now....
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Robert




Joined: 15 May 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you run on a treadmill, the Technogym has a program of a series of fartleks - e.g., 2mins fast, 2mins recover, 2mins fast, etc. until 30mins are up. If you do 60mins, it goes to 3mins on, 3mins off.

Got me from huffing and puffing at 10kph and giving up after 20mins to being able to run 10Km in around 50mins. Crap, I know - but it's miles better than I used to be!!
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Sue




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob
Quote:
being able to run 10Km in around 50mins. Crap, I know


--this is not "crap" since we have assertained in a previous post that many of us are in this category,
so dont put yourself down Rob Rolling Eyes

(or "us" to come to think of it Shocked )
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RuthE




Joined: 06 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeh,
Agree with Sue, one of the off putting things about this forum is people defining their times as crap. Especialy when the times are for some people unattainable. (Yeh Really rubbish only managed the olympic tri in 3hr15 etc etc...) Have some tact please! All goals are personal.
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Robert




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's pretty bad compared to Daz and Gman, who seem to run a marathon about the same speed as I can do over 400m!

Still, at least I'm not as bad as the guy in the other thread - walking the swim indeed....!
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neil montgomery




Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quite right Sue - this puts me in the super-crap category!!

methinks he is showing off.....
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Sue




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think we all know what is realistically good for ourselves and that is what we should be aiming for. There is always someone "better" --even GM and Daz would say that, but we usually cannot reach that standard so why give yourself a bad time over it

So we are all "good" in our own sphere,
--and even better for being in this sport at all. So lets all feel good about ourselves

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Stealth Attack




Joined: 19 May 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't life be boring if we knew in advance when our time was up or what our potential for athletic performance was. The fact these remain a mystery is part of the fun of training and racing. Sure, olympic standard athletes tend to be born rather than made, but below this, I am convinced that the overwhelming majority of us have the potential to reach a very high standard. But it all depends on what we want out of the sport; how competitative we are and how we perceive ourselves. With a positive attitude to training and weight loss I am certain that most of you could get close to a sub 2hr 30min olympic distance. It wouldn't be easy but don't lose sight of the possibility. Regard it as a long term aim. Your short term aim might be just to finish one. Fine. Goals should be both challenging and realistic.

Giantman
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