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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 127
Location: Worcester, UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:31 am    Post subject: Nutrition/Fluid Advice Reply with quote

I know this is an individual thing but is there a ballpark figure for carbs/calories and fluid that's a good starting point for longer training sessions.

I did a 13 mile run yesterday with a 500ml bottle of homemade drink with @60g of sugar and 1/2 tsp of salt. (After breakfast of 2 rounds toast, peanut butter and banana)

I got to 10 miles without too much trouble (1:40) but faded drastically after that to finish in 2:16. I've been running 7/8 miles regularly with the occasional 10 miler so this was a bit further than usual too.

The searches I've done seem a bit contradictory so any kind of simple rule to get me started would be appreciated if such a thing exists.

Thanks
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id say that's fitness related not nutrition related as you shouldn't need to eat if you are only out for a couple hours.
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What caused the fade?

If its pure fatigue, its unlikely due to lack of fuel. You haven't faded THAT badly so very unlikely it was lack of blood glucose (that would leave you at walking pace until remedied, not a fun experience)

Just sounds like you are not conditioned for longer mileages. No amount of sugary water will fix that. Only more training.
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Id say that's fitness related not nutrition related as you shouldn't need to eat if you are only out for a couple hours.


However you could also have eaten if you wanted to, which would've likely enabled you to go faster - probably as fast as you were attempting to go.

You cannot actually tell what made you slow down, you don't know if it was food, or some other form of fatigue, you may get to know this after many years of experience of your body and how it feels in various situations.

You could next time try eating more... It's not a science that anyone yet knows.
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
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Location: Worcester, UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Guys
In terms of what caused the fade I felt like a lethargy came over me and just generally drained. My legs didn't feel particularly tired or weak.
I drank loads of water when I got home (without going to the loo until hours later) and had an egg sandwich then ran the line at my son's football no problem after lunch.
I do sweat a lot so wondered if was hydration as much as energy.
You are right about training too, it was further than I'm used to and my intention is to keep building my normal distances up.
It may well be a combination of all those things to various degrees but if I had a rough plan re fluid and energy it might eliminate some variables.
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
If its pure fatigue, its unlikely due to lack of fuel. You haven't faded THAT badly so very unlikely it was lack of blood glucose (that would leave you at walking pace until remedied, not a fun experience)


Not for me, that's exactly the sort of "fade" that would result from lack of fuelling for me - I've not bonked, I've just not got the sort of reserves that mean I can continue at a higher speed, I need to ration them.

I think it's clearly something that's quite individual as some people don't slow, just suddenly stop. The internal pace limiters are simply different.
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SGreg




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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough, as you suggest its personal, and I really just don't suffer like that, I'm fine then, Boom complete bonk, fuelling will have me back up and running in 15/20mins

The only other time I fade is just fatigue and it takes days to recover (tail end of a marathon for example)

All that said we are both experienced and know our own bodies, but Still the OP it really sounds to me like a conditioning issue? I see nothing wrong in the fuelling he has taken on for a 2hr run and the fact he is unaccustomed to running those distances just sounds like fatigue!

I would expect fatigue and slow down towards the end of any run where I am pushing distance outward?

I suppose it could be fuelling, I didn't say it couldn't be, just all pointers IMO point to conditioning, I don't even take water for a 1/2 marathon and can normally pick up the pace towards the end.

If the op said he'd got up skipped breakfast, and done the run with nothing, I'd be inclined to think fuelling. but a hearty breakfast, sugary drink while running a longer distance than normally run ???
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find if I run longer than 1:45 I generally prefer to take some fluid and energy with me other wise I do fade and recover more slowly. Any less than this I am generally fine often run with or without having eaten beforehand, maybe a coffee and or a glass of water.

Cycling I can go on for much longer than running without taking food.
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me it sounds like fitness related rather than nutritional, although dehydration could definitely play a big factor, as it has been quite hot and humid lately.

I did a long run (16.3 miles XC, almost 2 hours) yesterday without any food/drink, but by the end of it definitely my weariness was from dehydration rather than lack of food.

The step up from 10 to 13 miles is quite a jump, convention is trying to increase duration/distance of your long run by around 10% at a time. If it was me, I'd try and back the distance down to 11-12 miles again this week, before stepping up to 13 a week later.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many variables. But I agree probably just conditioning in this case, as you increased mileage/time by a fair %. Weather alone would affect physiological workload & sweat rates for a start; it's been quite humid in certain parts of the country of late, for example.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lots of possibilities, not least conditioning, rest, hydration, nutrition, weather, focus, form, desire etc...

as an aside, it can be a big ask to step up in distance by 33% without sufficient preparation...
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
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Location: Tunbridge Wells

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Macronutrient Breakdown and Fluid Intake Reply with quote

MichaelK wrote:
For fluid intake we use a formula where you take your weight in Kg and divide by 0.024, which yields water intake in litres.


Dividing by 0.024 would give you a fluid intake of 2500-4000 litres, depending on your weight... I assume you mean multiplying?

Also, is this per day?
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jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Macronutrient Breakdown and Fluid Intake Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
MichaelK wrote:
For fluid intake we use a formula where you take your weight in Kg and divide by 0.024, which yields water intake in litres.


Dividing by 0.024 would give you a fluid intake of 2500-4000 litres, depending on your weight... I assume you mean multiplying?

Also, is this per day?


maybe per year, and the dividing was right?
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TransitionTed




Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Macronutrient Breakdown and Fluid Intake Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
MichaelK wrote:
For fluid intake we use a formula where you take your weight in Kg and divide by 0.024, which yields water intake in litres.


Dividing by 0.024 would give you a fluid intake of 2500-4000 litres, depending on your weight... I assume you mean multiplying?

Also, is this per day?


If I multiply the factors I get around 1.8 litres, that's an awful lot per hour. I'm assuming per day
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TransitionTed




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind you, I did an 8k mountain race yesterday, and the amount of gels and fluid people were carrying was ridiculous. You'd lose more time trying to get the damn wrappers out of the elastic tags than you'd gain from energy intake
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