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Half Iron bike power level advice please
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
It sounds like you have aerodynamic issues.


+1

Plenty of us out there doing 'average' Ironman courses comfortably under 5:30 on 175-180 NP for example, or 2:30ish HIM on around 200w. I'm not talking Tenby or Weymouth here, but something around 1500m climbing for a Full.

Another thing to consider, is that you can always 'undercook' the bike a bit and make it up on the run, very hard to do it in reverse over the longer distances. Normally ends in a lot of cramp on the run in my experience, if you over-do the bike.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
stenard wrote:
but as it was, I got carried away and blasted around with a final IF of 0.92, and TSS of 246.


Laughing

The run was definitely not funny! Stupid Me

As I said though, I'm putting it down as a learning experience. It's only my second middle distance race, and the first was the Cotswold Classic where you can just get into a groove and tap out a rhythm. This was my first real exposure to just how much effect "match burning" can have on the subsequent run, and how easy it is to burn them on the hills and lumps.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
stenard wrote:
but as it was, I got carried away and blasted around with a final IF of 0.92, and TSS of 246.


Laughing

The run was definitely not funny! Stupid Me

As I said though, I'm putting it down as a learning experience. It's only my second middle distance race, and the first was the Cotswold Classic where you can just get into a groove and tap out a rhythm. This was my first real exposure to just how much effect "match burning" can have on the subsequent run, and how easy it is to burn them on the hills and lumps.


You're really going to enjoy an Ironman Twisted Evil
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Cat5 in the Hat




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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smarkgee wrote:
stenard wrote:

I'm surprised that you have an FTP near 280w yet are anticipating a time potentially around 3.5hrs. You're looking at 1500m of climbing on that route. Weymouth on Sunday was 1000m. I had only 202w NP / 182w AP (FTP 220), and finished the bike in 2:55.

Unless you are significantly heavier than me (70kg), then even factoring in the additional climbing (I've only done Hever Oly 3 times, never the Gauntlet, but the Weymouth route struck me as very similar to the terrain around Hever), I would have thought with your FTP you should be under 3hrs? Strava shows a few people at or under 200w for a lap in the 1hr20 region.

EDIT - to add, based on my recent Weymouth (hellish) experience, I would also go even lower on the target power with the knowledge of the hilly trail run that Hever has.


nope. 70kg too and the 276 ftp IS current.
just checked garmin: for my 5 hour ride the NP was 230w based on an incorrect 264w setting. when I last did the hever my FTP would have been higher than now BUT I didn't do much (any!) long stuff then.


Just to help you, NP has sweet FA to do with your FTP. a 230W NP is 230W NP whether your FTP 100W or 1000W.

Knowing FTP will help you work out IF. That's about as close as it comes to NP.

In the sport of kings that is duathlon it really pays to undercook the bike. I've done it twice and the second run is almost fun. Most other times I've overbiked.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy great resurrection Wink

crumpy wrote:
stenard wrote:
If you can do 5hrs at 230, then <3hrs at 210-220 (0.76-0.8 IF) doesnt seem excessive. You would just need to be disciplined on the climbs and try and spin up as best as possible. Something I didnt do.


Totally agree with disciplined on climbs. This still means you can go over FTP for a few climbs as long as it is not into deep red.

My FTP is 265 watts. When I race HIM, allow up to c.300 watts on climbs. Normalised power, keep around 225 watts for an IF of 0.85. That still means a sub 1.30 half mara on a flattish run course.

P.S. 3.5hrs at 225 watts for 70kg seems way too slow


Tomorrow I'm targeting staying between 70-80% FTP in my first ride out with a power display, the hills I'm unsure on - there are two main climbs, in lowest gear Im still grinding up at 95%+ FTP.

What's 'too deep into the red'? On training rides I easily go over 150% FTP sometimes north of 200% on hills.
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PCP




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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I biked at 82% (82km bike), ran and didn't cramp. That's twice in 2 weeks after 4 years of cramping since I started doing tri's. Had to keep a lid on it, was at 85% and pushing but decided to back off. Every other year I'd have pushed on and blown up on the run.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
It sounds like you have aerodynamic issues.


that...

and base your power/HR on specific training ride experience...
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tuckandgo




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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nope. 70kg too and the 276 ftp IS current.
just checked garmin: for my 5 hour ride the NP was 230w and IF based on an incorrect 264w setting. when I last did the hever my FTP would have been higher than now BUT I didn't do much (any!) long stuff then.

I am confidentish I could do the bike in less than 3 hours based on the training I've been doing BUT I am concerned about the run which I found very hard last time as the bike did me in. that's why I want to get the bike 'right'

Okay - so some really simple stuff.
1. If your FTP is 275ish and you can do 230NP for 5 hours you are bike fit.
2. On that basis you should be able to aim comfortably for 80% FTP for a HIM and run off the bike.
3. This assumes you are doing run training as well of course. Adjust downwards as you see fit based on your run training.
4. Up the hills - CAP YOUR POWER. I cannot stress this enough. Let people shoot past you if they wish. I would suggest capping it at around FTP. Perhaps a tiny bit over.

To give you an idea how this works, I weigh a bit under 70KG. At IM Wales I did 5.51. My FTP was around 280 ish (very ish, I hadn't measured it for a bit, but no higher than 290).
My AP was 202 and my NP 220 - this is a high variable but not bad considering how hilly wales is and the steepness of the hills and technical descents. I only have about 3-4 30second periods over 300W on the steepest hills, and this was less than 350W.
This left me with enough in the tank to have a good run.

Does that help?
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've actually started looking back at my IF on various HIM events, in preparation for next month and the resulting run afterwards. In recent years, my best run came off 0.81. They all come in .78-.82, but overall fitness come into play too. I find after an Ironman, that I'm obviously stronger and run better after that IF on the bike.

Just had a look at the only hilly Half I've done in a while, that was 0.837, and I ran a decent 14 mile hilly mixed terrain off that (Immortal Half).
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:

Tomorrow I'm targeting staying between 70-80% FTP in my first ride out with a power display, the hills I'm unsure on - there are two main climbs, in lowest gear I'm still grinding up at 95%+ FTP.

What's 'too deep into the red'? On training rides I easily go over 150% FTP sometimes north of 200% on hills.


What will you use, displayed power or NP/IF?

I'm actually still doing my longer rides on PRE, and looking at the numbers afterwards. My trainer rides are all targeted power. Obviously I do my races on IF/NP, either to rein me in on longer events, or to prevent slacking in Sprints! I'm one of those bikers that often struggles to ride to their potential on flatter courses, as I seem to have difficulty when nature isn't resisting much.
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:

To give you an idea how this works, I weigh a bit under 70KG. At IM Wales I did 5.51. My FTP was around 280 ish (very ish, I hadn't measured it for a bit, but no higher than 290).
My AP was 202 and my NP 220 - this is a high variable but not bad considering how hilly wales is and the steepness of the hills and technical descents. I only have about 3-4 30second periods over 300W on the steepest hills, and this was less than 350W.
This left me with enough in the tank to have a good run.

Does that help?


This really helps me - I am similar weight to you, and similar FTP, around 290. My plan for wales is AP 200-205, NP 220-225. If I can complete the bike in a similar time to you I would be really happy.
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuckandgo wrote:
Adjust downwards as you see fit based on your run training.


Good advice, but also should consider your run speed, if you're going to be out for 80 minutes or 120 minutes, it will impact your bike. For the 70kg balanced folk that isn't likely to be as much of an issue, but if you are an inefficient runner and efficient biker, then it may be very real.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:

Tomorrow I'm targeting staying between 70-80% FTP in my first ride out with a power display, the hills I'm unsure on - there are two main climbs, in lowest gear I'm still grinding up at 95%+ FTP.

What's 'too deep into the red'? On training rides I easily go over 150% FTP sometimes north of 200% on hills.


What will you use, displayed power or NP/IF?

I'm actually still doing my longer rides on PRE, and looking at the numbers afterwards. My trainer rides are all targeted power. Obviously I do my races on IF/NP, either to rein me in on longer events, or to prevent slacking in Sprints! I'm one of those bikers that often struggles to ride to their potential on flatter courses, as I seem to have difficulty when nature isn't resisting much.


The PowerTap app shows watts and average watts, so watts would be my choice.

Extremely frustrating though, the pedals didn't connect so I raced on perceived exhertion and recorded most of the ride on Strava through my Apple Watch.

Haven't had time to analyse but the toughest climb Strava estimates I did about 85% FTP, I have a feeling I undercooked the bike because I was worried about the mountain. But I had no problems on the run, just took it relatively easy with regulated walk breaks and felt fine, never felt in trouble...which is a first Smile
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stenard




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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
... Strava estimates I did about 85% FTP...

Was this just the default strava estimates if the pedals didnt connect? If so, those numbers are effectively meaningless.
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
... Strava estimates I did about 85% FTP...

Was this just the default strava estimates if the pedals didnt connect? If so, those numbers are effectively meaningless.


Yep but it's all I have!
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