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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus wrote:
I'm just going to pop back into this thread, apologise profusely and readily admit I can't be arsed to read the last 4 pages, forgive me Wink

But as the OP was something about the EU (I can't even remember what it was - it was, like, last century) here's a bit of a rant:

Three of us at our company have set up a meeting with a key Belgian industrial partner. He is fundamental to our business and we are a significant potential future for his.

Trouble is, one of us three is Chinese (although lived in the UK 10+yrs). He cannot attend this meeting next month because he needs a visa to visit the EU, for just one simple business meeting. For this visa he needs to show 3+ months salary slips (we're a start-up, so no salary slips yet) plus a juggernaut full of other documentation. Which will all take 1-3 months to complete. Just so he can attend one, simple business meeting.

This guy is vital for this meeting and, instead, is going to have to conference call in whilst we 2 physically attend.

Yet the EU flings open its doors to millions of North Africans and Arabs, offering them homes and lifestyles, 'come on in, people, you're all welcome!'

No wonder the EU is f*cked.

Ok, rant over.

Carry on.
Given the strong anti immigration stance in Britain just now do you think that leaving will improve this?


Is there a strong anti immigration stance in Britain or did you just make that up?
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2607

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus wrote:
I'm just going to pop back into this thread, apologise profusely and readily admit I can't be arsed to read the last 4 pages, forgive me Wink

But as the OP was something about the EU (I can't even remember what it was - it was, like, last century) here's a bit of a rant:

Three of us at our company have set up a meeting with a key Belgian industrial partner. He is fundamental to our business and we are a significant potential future for his.

Trouble is, one of us three is Chinese (although lived in the UK 10+yrs). He cannot attend this meeting next month because he needs a visa to visit the EU, for just one simple business meeting. For this visa he needs to show 3+ months salary slips (we're a start-up, so no salary slips yet) plus a juggernaut full of other documentation. Which will all take 1-3 months to complete. Just so he can attend one, simple business meeting.

This guy is vital for this meeting and, instead, is going to have to conference call in whilst we 2 physically attend.

Yet the EU flings open its doors to millions of North Africans and Arabs, offering them homes and lifestyles, 'come on in, people, you're all welcome!'

No wonder the EU is f*cked.

Ok, rant over.

Carry on.
Given the strong anti immigration stance in Britain just now do you think that leaving will improve this?


Is there a strong anti immigration stance in Britain or did you just make that up?
i was simply thinking about what I read from the press Ejc, you know apparently immigration is a bigger issue than the single market.
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus wrote:
I'm just going to pop back into this thread, apologise profusely and readily admit I can't be arsed to read the last 4 pages, forgive me Wink

But as the OP was something about the EU (I can't even remember what it was - it was, like, last century) here's a bit of a rant:

Three of us at our company have set up a meeting with a key Belgian industrial partner. He is fundamental to our business and we are a significant potential future for his.

Trouble is, one of us three is Chinese (although lived in the UK 10+yrs). He cannot attend this meeting next month because he needs a visa to visit the EU, for just one simple business meeting. For this visa he needs to show 3+ months salary slips (we're a start-up, so no salary slips yet) plus a juggernaut full of other documentation. Which will all take 1-3 months to complete. Just so he can attend one, simple business meeting.

This guy is vital for this meeting and, instead, is going to have to conference call in whilst we 2 physically attend.

Yet the EU flings open its doors to millions of North Africans and Arabs, offering them homes and lifestyles, 'come on in, people, you're all welcome!'

No wonder the EU is f*cked.

Ok, rant over.

Carry on.
Given the strong anti immigration stance in Britain just now do you think that leaving will improve this?


No.

The issue isn't a UK/EU one. It's an EU/Chinese one.

A Chinese citizen needs to jump through hoops just to have a business meeting in the EU. (It's just incidental he's part of our company in the UK).

This is the EU's loss and symptomatic of their problem. They really have a problem on the international stage - aside from struggling to agree any FTA's with any other major global economy, their whole bureaucracy is protectionist and counter-productive to economic growth.

Our business operates on a global/international scale and from this perspective I can tell you, the rest of the world dwarves the potential of the EU, which so many UK people don't realise. Many people in the UK have become so tunnel-visioned on the EU as if it is our only option. China, India and the US markets have so much more potential, and that's without looking at other trading groups (ASEAN etc).
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus

I agree re China and India, just remember that the US can be a graveyard for British business, at least in the past.

Personally I think that our relationship with China is going to strengthen over the coming years. If I was any good with languages I would learn Mandarin myself, but I am a complete clot with languages. Even at my age I think that it would be a good investment.
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Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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Location: Freezing my nads off in Aberdoom

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus

I agree re China and India, just remember that the US can be a graveyard for British business, at least in the past.

Personally I think that our relationship with China is going to strengthen over the coming years. If I was any good with languages I would learn Mandarin myself, but I am a complete clot with languages. Even at my age I think that it would be a good investment.


Definitely on the China thing. We're involved to a large degree with various UK Govt funding organisations and we've noticed a significant drive to increase collaboration at both academic and industrial levels between UK and China for mutual benefit (ok, probably more ours than theirs!). Our Govt do actually see the enormous potential of the Chinese market versus EU, which does explain, for example, our rather muted complaints about 'human rights' over there. For start-ups like us that are forging alliances and partnerships in China they are very keen to financially assist.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus wrote:
I'm just going to pop back into this thread, apologise profusely and readily admit I can't be arsed to read the last 4 pages, forgive me Wink

But as the OP was something about the EU (I can't even remember what it was - it was, like, last century) here's a bit of a rant:

Three of us at our company have set up a meeting with a key Belgian industrial partner. He is fundamental to our business and we are a significant potential future for his.

Trouble is, one of us three is Chinese (although lived in the UK 10+yrs). He cannot attend this meeting next month because he needs a visa to visit the EU, for just one simple business meeting. For this visa he needs to show 3+ months salary slips (we're a start-up, so no salary slips yet) plus a juggernaut full of other documentation. Which will all take 1-3 months to complete. Just so he can attend one, simple business meeting.

This guy is vital for this meeting and, instead, is going to have to conference call in whilst we 2 physically attend.

Yet the EU flings open its doors to millions of North Africans and Arabs, offering them homes and lifestyles, 'come on in, people, you're all welcome!'

No wonder the EU is f*cked.

Ok, rant over.

Carry on.
Given the strong anti immigration stance in Britain just now do you think that leaving will improve this?


Is there a strong anti immigration stance in Britain or did you just make that up?
i was simply thinking about what I read from the press Ejc, you know apparently immigration is a bigger issue than the single market.


Possibly

But understanding the difference between anti immigration and controlled immigration rewards a small amount of research
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2607

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus wrote:
I'm just going to pop back into this thread, apologise profusely and readily admit I can't be arsed to read the last 4 pages, forgive me Wink

But as the OP was something about the EU (I can't even remember what it was - it was, like, last century) here's a bit of a rant:

Three of us at our company have set up a meeting with a key Belgian industrial partner. He is fundamental to our business and we are a significant potential future for his.

Trouble is, one of us three is Chinese (although lived in the UK 10+yrs). He cannot attend this meeting next month because he needs a visa to visit the EU, for just one simple business meeting. For this visa he needs to show 3+ months salary slips (we're a start-up, so no salary slips yet) plus a juggernaut full of other documentation. Which will all take 1-3 months to complete. Just so he can attend one, simple business meeting.

This guy is vital for this meeting and, instead, is going to have to conference call in whilst we 2 physically attend.

Yet the EU flings open its doors to millions of North Africans and Arabs, offering them homes and lifestyles, 'come on in, people, you're all welcome!'

No wonder the EU is f*cked.

Ok, rant over.

Carry on.
Given the strong anti immigration stance in Britain just now do you think that leaving will improve this?


Is there a strong anti immigration stance in Britain or did you just make that up?
i was simply thinking about what I read from the press Ejc, you know apparently immigration is a bigger issue than the single market.


Possibly

But understanding the difference between anti immigration and controlled immigration rewards a small amount of research
i do Ejc, but when you read the news you sometimes wonder if that is what hard brexiters really want, thinking back to some of the pre vote stuff as well. As supported by the immediate post vote hate campaigns and assumptions that immigrants would be leaving soon.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2607

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus

I agree re China and India, just remember that the US can be a graveyard for British business, at least in the past.

Personally I think that our relationship with China is going to strengthen over the coming years. If I was any good with languages I would learn Mandarin myself, but I am a complete clot with languages. Even at my age I think that it would be a good investment.


Definitely on the China thing. We're involved to a large degree with various UK Govt funding organisations and we've noticed a significant drive to increase collaboration at both academic and industrial levels between UK and China for mutual benefit (ok, probably more ours than theirs!). Our Govt do actually see the enormous potential of the Chinese market versus EU, which does explain, for example, our rather muted complaints about 'human rights' over there. For start-ups like us that are forging alliances and partnerships in China they are very keen to financially assist.
Good.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus

The FBI produced a video called "Game of Pawns" about the true story of a US student who fell into becoming a spy for China. It is a sobering watch at how easy it could be to happen.

Now I am not suggesting that this will happen to you, and quite frankly it is probably applicable to a large number of foreign nations. Our spooks may well recruit in a similar manner, who knows. But it is a mighty effective way of recruitment as (1) it works, it is a true story, and (2) it would be very easy to get caught up in helping improve international relationships and quickly getting way out of your depth.

It might be a good half hour investment of your time to keep in mind when dealing with any foreign nation if you ever travel.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/17/fbi-warns-american-students-recruited-spies_n_5165234.html

We have discussed it on remote viewing sites and one of the ex us army spooks confirmed that was a true story and a worthy watch. It certainly worried the FBI enough to produce it.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
i do Ejc, but when you read the news you sometimes wonder if that is what hard brexiters really want, thinking back to some of the pre vote stuff as well. As supported by the immediate post vote hate campaigns and assumptions that immigrants would be leaving soon.


read the news where?
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
i do Ejc, but when you read the news you sometimes wonder if that is what hard brexiters really want, thinking back to some of the pre vote stuff as well. As supported by the immediate post vote hate campaigns and assumptions that immigrants would be leaving soon.


read the news where?
you know the news, it pops up on an iPad, from lots of newspapers. Sorry me being silly at this hour, but most of my news comes from the Economist, BBC, guardian, telegraph. Even telly has its fair share.

A couple of examples come to immediate mind, the school kids being told that they would be going home soon, and notes posted to people's doors telling them to pack up Immediately post vote.

Even our local polish shop is no longer observable from outside due to the windows being advertised up fully (though that may be coincidental) and less polish is noticeably spoken on the street, and this is Oxfordshire.

Brexit really has brought out some difficult views in some, in much the same way that the Cameron government/coalition did re disabled people.

Fortunately we do seem to be moving past such hatred. But it is there, all brought out by polibloodyticians trying to score points.
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Gus




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
i do Ejc, but when you read the news you sometimes wonder if that is what hard brexiters really want, thinking back to some of the pre vote stuff as well. As supported by the immediate post vote hate campaigns and assumptions that immigrants would be leaving soon.


read the news where?
you know the news, it pops up on an iPad, from lots of newspapers. Sorry me being silly at this hour, but most of my news comes from the Economist, BBC, guardian, telegraph. Even telly has its fair share.

A couple of examples come to immediate mind, the school kids being told that they would be going home soon, and notes posted to people's doors telling them to pack up Immediately post vote.

Even our local polish shop is no longer observable from outside due to the windows being advertised up fully (though that may be coincidental) and less polish is noticeably spoken on the street, and this is Oxfordshire.

Brexit really has brought out some difficult views in some, in much the same way that the Cameron government/coalition did re disabled people.

Fortunately we do seem to be moving past such hatred. But it is there, all brought out by polibloodyticians trying to score points.


Sloggers - you have to realise that most of the MSM was/is very anti-Brexit so the agenda has always been to highlight as much of the extreme incidents as possible.

I personally do not believe there has been a significant increase in what they call 'hate' crimes over the normal racism levels, but it's very easy for the media to pick up on any incidents and blast them widely as 'evidence' that Brexit has exacerbated this. As I know you do, you must always try to take several steps back and view any so-called news items from a wider perspective to understand the agenda driving them. Only then do you start to realise how much is, frankly, bullsh1t.

There was a very interesting 'leak' several years ago about one news channel (I forget specifically which one) where a management memo dictated the manner in which (IIRC) anti-war demos were to be portrayed. Basically any 'anti' to be interviewed had to be scruffy, unkempt, poorly-spoken and generally of an unattractive nature. Any 'pro' had to be suited, intelligent, erudite etc. - you get the picture. In other words, it's all about perception. I have no doubt our media outlets control the agenda in similar ways. It's a simple but effective method to influence public opinion.

Also, and this really, really p1sses me off (and it's not aimed at you but the general 'remain' population) - I am not xenophobic, racist, anti-immigration or other such ridiculous labels. I didn't vote 'leave' because I'm any of these. Believe it or not, most of us who voted so, actually DID understand the issues - although many seemed to think we are too 'stupid' to understand them.

As EJC says, there is a huge difference between being 'anti' and 'controlling' immigration.

The latest rabid panic that a hard Brexit means we won't be able to staff the NHS (etc.) is just utter, utter stupidity. By controlling our borders we can still let in those we WANT to let in to staff the NHS (etc.) should we need them.

Sometimes I really despair at the stupidity of those who label people like me as 'stupid'.
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Gus




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Gus

The FBI produced a video called "Game of Pawns" about the true story of a US student who fell into becoming a spy for China. It is a sobering watch at how easy it could be to happen.

Now I am not suggesting that this will happen to you, and quite frankly it is probably applicable to a large number of foreign nations. Our spooks may well recruit in a similar manner, who knows. But it is a mighty effective way of recruitment as (1) it works, it is a true story, and (2) it would be very easy to get caught up in helping improve international relationships and quickly getting way out of your depth.

It might be a good half hour investment of your time to keep in mind when dealing with any foreign nation if you ever travel.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/17/fbi-warns-american-students-recruited-spies_n_5165234.html

We have discussed it on remote viewing sites and one of the ex us army spooks confirmed that was a true story and a worthy watch. It certainly worried the FBI enough to produce it.


Thanks Sloggers, I'll take a look.

Although hopefully I think the chances of me being recruited by the PRC are not quite that high Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus

I know and I agree with you re public perception manipulation.

The funny thing is that is is that type of issue that has turned parts of the public anti establishment.

Regardless the fact is that these things have happened, and there really is a noticeable decrease in polish spoken on the streets. But obviously that could be coincidental, or could be a sign of genuine fear.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
i do Ejc, but when you read the news you sometimes wonder if that is what hard brexiters really want, thinking back to some of the pre vote stuff as well. As supported by the immediate post vote hate campaigns and assumptions that immigrants would be leaving soon.


read the news where?
you know the news, it pops up on an iPad, from lots of newspapers. Sorry me being silly at this hour, but most of my news comes from the Economist, BBC, guardian, telegraph. Even telly has its fair share.

A couple of examples come to immediate mind, the school kids being told that they would be going home soon, and notes posted to people's doors telling them to pack up Immediately post vote.

Even our local polish shop is no longer observable from outside due to the windows being advertised up fully (though that may be coincidental) and less polish is noticeably spoken on the street, and this is Oxfordshire.

Brexit really has brought out some difficult views in some, in much the same way that the Cameron government/coalition did re disabled people.

Fortunately we do seem to be moving past such hatred. But it is there, all brought out by polibloodyticians trying to score points.


As Gus has highlighted, much of the establishment is pro EU and this is reflected in the press that either controls, owns or has a vested interest in it...

Understandably there has always been a tendency for the news to report the extremes - there is no news in headline "today everything was normal" - and a greater tendency for motivated reasoning even by less partial observers.

Added to this, the hate crime law is so badly created. Anyone can report a hate crime. Even if you were not there, did not witness anything and have no evidence. The police have to record this, review it and follow it up. But it goes on the stats. This is the sort of law we read about from those much feared communist countries.

Top this up with a non existent immigration policy - he who pushes hardest shall be first, he who waits in line shall be last - without an appropriate infrastructure, and we have created more opportunity for unrest and extreme behaviour.

That there is racism, I have no doubt. That there were problems post referendum, i have no doubt either. However, for the last 20 years immigration should have been a topic for proper debate. These issues could and should have been aired openly and addressed. The left culture has, of course, been to shut debate down with a cry of racist.

..and finally, successful business create a product, product fails, business listens to feedback and recreates product...

EU creates a policy, policy fails, EU blames people...
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