Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Structured training in 2017
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 831
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murph333 wrote:

Advice that I was given for FTP testing was after the test you should want to take the bike and throw it into the road and watch a bus drive over it and be happy.





That's not it at all.

After a well executed FTP test you should want to lie down, or throw up. that's it.

I am rarely aware of my own name....there is no way I could even muster up the energy to recognise my bike as a "thing" in order to hate it, let alone actually be able to pick it up! as for throwing it! pfffft...

I find the nearest flat thing and lie on it until some of the fogs lifted.




I must say I am amazed TR is not showing results for you!

Do you find the Sessions challenging? Done at the correct FTP they should feel nearly impossible. Intense mental focus is needed for me to get through the sets.

If your FTP is too low then you may find the sets grindy and boring but physically quite easy, at the right FTP its balls to wall nasty especially VO2 Max. If you aren't almost sick, light headed and fuzzy after those the effort is too low?

How is your HR?

I'm not trying to accuse you of slacking but if you are testing light the load may just be to low. Just trying to find a reason for the lack of improvement.

If its all just incredibly hard....maybe you just have run out of head room? we can't keep improving forever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jibberjim




Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 8050
Location: Kingston

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
After a well executed FTP test you should want to lie down, or throw up. that's it.


I don't agree with that at all - the second particularly - would be a poorly executed FTP test, since they are symptoms of anearobic energy systems being rapidly exhausted, something that shouldn't happen in an FTP test, since you shouldn't be keeping anything in reserve such that you can tap into them. ie you went easy for the majority of the time.

Now it could be if you are quite unfit aerobically that could happen, but that should be unlikely in someone actually doing aerobic training.

Not that I disagree with the rest of the post, sensible advice, and investigating what is happening with a static (sub 4w/kg) FTP in someone who is training and improving in other areas is certainly something that should make you look at your training.
_________________
Jibbering Sports Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 831
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it was an exaggeration of a point, you will definitely want to lie down though. Not start throwing your bike about.

Well certainly that's how I feel after flat-lining FTP tests.

My main point was simply you have given all there is to give, and was wondering if the OP was in the same boat?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Murph333




Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Murph333 wrote:

meanwhile I have been able to basically reduce my 5k time by 3min, 10k by 6min and took 10min off my 1/2 Marathon PB.


Sounds like you must be a relative newcomer to endurance sports with those sorts of gains?



Yes fairly new, only been doing Endurance sports for about 4-5 years, 1 full IM and about 3 half's before that I played a sport that required anaerobic efforts for 30second to 1min.



and as to wanting to throw the bike, yes that was a gross exaggeration more for a laugh, just the idea is you should be giving it everything you have for the entire test and be destroyed afterwards, (this is all while keeping a constant power throughout, no spikes or tapers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2197
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:

I must say I am amazed TR is not showing results for you!

Do you find the Sessions challenging? Done at the correct FTP they should feel nearly impossible. Intense mental focus is needed for me to get through the sets.

If your FTP is too low then you may find the sets grindy and boring but physically quite easy, at the right FTP its balls to wall nasty especially VO2 Max. If you aren't almost sick, light headed and fuzzy after those the effort is too low?

How is your HR?

I'm not trying to accuse you of slacking but if you are testing light the load may just be to low. Just trying to find a reason for the lack of improvement.

If its all just incredibly hard....maybe you just have run out of head room? we can't keep improving forever.


I think this post is aimed at me. The base/recovery type sessions are all achievable, the VO2 max sessions kill me - I have failed to complete these a few times.

I don't think all the sessions are meant to be incredibly hard. The IFs range from 0.65 to 0.9. One session was 0.95, Bago, that broke me. For real world comparison my recent 10TT was IF 1.15, although that included warm down.

I've done one of the truly long turbo trainer sessions - 4hrs45, 200 TSS, I had three breaks to finish that but because of ass pain & mental anguish, not leg tiredness.

I would be happy to find out I'm not trying hard enough or somesuchlike - I do have a tendency to slack off but TR + Power Meter should combat that - I really have no pride here, this is all about results.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14351
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what is so demanding about the VO2 max sessions? Surely they are structured with sufficient recovery?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Murph333




Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
what is so demanding about the VO2 max sessions? Surely they are structured with sufficient recovery?


I'm always hurting after V02 max workouts either bike or run,

Looking at a recent TR workout (Mansfield) it is 4x5min at 1.05 IF with 5min recovery. To me that felt hard,

Same with Running V02 hurts, last one I did 8min up a gradual climb (Running pace was 4:30/km, which is fast for me), recovery down hill, then 6min, 4min 2min. repeats and that was very hard.


Maybe I am doing something wrong then?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 831
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
SGreg wrote:

I must say I am amazed TR is not showing results for you!

Do you find the Sessions challenging? Done at the correct FTP they should feel nearly impossible. Intense mental focus is needed for me to get through the sets.

If your FTP is too low then you may find the sets grindy and boring but physically quite easy, at the right FTP its balls to wall nasty especially VO2 Max. If you aren't almost sick, light headed and fuzzy after those the effort is too low?

How is your HR?

I'm not trying to accuse you of slacking but if you are testing light the load may just be to low. Just trying to find a reason for the lack of improvement.

If its all just incredibly hard....maybe you just have run out of head room? we can't keep improving forever.


I think this post is aimed at me. The base/recovery type sessions are all achievable, the VO2 max sessions kill me - I have failed to complete these a few times.

I don't think all the sessions are meant to be incredibly hard. The IFs range from 0.65 to 0.9. One session was 0.95, Bago, that broke me. For real world comparison my recent 10TT was IF 1.15, although that included warm down.

I've done one of the truly long turbo trainer sessions - 4hrs45, 200 TSS, I had three breaks to finish that but because of ass pain & mental anguish, not leg tiredness.

I would be happy to find out I'm not trying hard enough or somesuchlike - I do have a tendency to slack off but TR + Power Meter should combat that - I really have no pride here, this is all about results.


That's all fine I wasn't wanting to throw around accusations, just trying too see what it felt like to you.

Sounds like things are hard, when they are meant to be. I've done Bago and still have nightmares!

Of course the low IF sessions shouldn't be too hard more boring and grindy, Its the VO2 max sets and over unders that need to feel hard, if they are really testing you then its sounds like the FTP is certainly ballpark.


How are things in the real world? you mention 10TT ? Are things improving there?


As an example I've just done Mansfield that Murph333 mentioned and found it positively easy! My initial reaction was I need an FTP bump! I'm only 4 weeks from my last test where I recorded a record ftp for me.

I'm doing the IM low volume and it couldn't be going better....sorry




Explorer, Yes there is adequate rest (or they would be pointless) but they are still very mentally challenging as well as physical. The Vo2 Max drive you to almost exhaustion then let you recover. Your body is normally capable of repeating this but its very challenging mentally as once you have ridden to exhausting its hard to believe you can again, and also the thought of doing it again is very unappealing as its far from a pleasant experience.

But if you can mentally force yourself the body normally obliges, assuming you haven't ever done it on the day...its a fine line and as has been pointed out your FTP varies day to day, its only a guess.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2197
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know/rate how TrainingPeaks calculates power threshold?

I just uploaded my 10TT file today and it notified me I had set a new threshold power of 241.

Am I grasping at straws here? Wink
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14351
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murph333 wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
what is so demanding about the VO2 max sessions? Surely they are structured with sufficient recovery?


I'm always hurting after V02 max workouts either bike or run,

Looking at a recent TR workout (Mansfield) it is 4x5min at 1.05 IF with 5min recovery. To me that felt hard,

Same with Running V02 hurts, last one I did 8min up a gradual climb (Running pace was 4:30/km, which is fast for me), recovery down hill, then 6min, 4min 2min. repeats and that was very hard.


Maybe I am doing something wrong then?


how did you get on with 3 x 5 mins or 4 x 4 mins?

similarly, did you perform any better doing 7 mins running or at 4:45 pace?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Murph333




Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Murph333 wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
what is so demanding about the VO2 max sessions? Surely they are structured with sufficient recovery?


I'm always hurting after V02 max workouts either bike or run,

Looking at a recent TR workout (Mansfield) it is 4x5min at 1.05 IF with 5min recovery. To me that felt hard,

Same with Running V02 hurts, last one I did 8min up a gradual climb (Running pace was 4:30/km, which is fast for me), recovery down hill, then 6min, 4min 2min. repeats and that was very hard.


Maybe I am doing something wrong then?




how did you get on with 3 x 5 mins or 4 x 4 mins?

similarly, did you perform any better doing 7 mins running or at 4:45 pace?


If I understand what you are asking, yes I keep the intensity the same but shorten the duration its not as painful, but if I shorten the duration then the intensity should go up. So running 7min at a 4:45 pace is a lot "easier" then the 8min 4:30.. But if I am only going to be running for 7min I will try to push the pace faster than my 8min pace of 4:30.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14351
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:


Explorer, Yes there is adequate rest (or they would be pointless) but they are still very mentally challenging as well as physical. The Vo2 Max drive you to almost exhaustion then let you recover. Your body is normally capable of repeating this but its very challenging mentally as once you have ridden to exhausting its hard to believe you can again, and also the thought of doing it again is very unappealing as its far from a pleasant experience.

But if you can mentally force yourself the body normally obliges, assuming you haven't ever done it on the day...its a fine line and as has been pointed out your FTP varies day to day, its only a guess.


the interval prescribed in the sessions i have seen here appear to be arbitrary, because the pace is defined by what appears to be a wide band of possibility...

Considering the need to be reasonably fresh to take advantage of these sessions, the recovery time required and the athlete feedback from a couple of those in this thread, i would be considering the suitability of the set for the athlete's objectives and/or the suitability of the athlete for the set...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14351
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murph333 wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Murph333 wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
what is so demanding about the VO2 max sessions? Surely they are structured with sufficient recovery?


I'm always hurting after V02 max workouts either bike or run,

Looking at a recent TR workout (Mansfield) it is 4x5min at 1.05 IF with 5min recovery. To me that felt hard,

Same with Running V02 hurts, last one I did 8min up a gradual climb (Running pace was 4:30/km, which is fast for me), recovery down hill, then 6min, 4min 2min. repeats and that was very hard.


Maybe I am doing something wrong then?




how did you get on with 3 x 5 mins or 4 x 4 mins?

similarly, did you perform any better doing 7 mins running or at 4:45 pace?


If I understand what you are asking, yes I keep the intensity the same but shorten the duration its not as painful, but if I shorten the duration then the intensity should go up. So running 7min at a 4:45 pace is a lot "easier" then the 8min 4:30.. But if I am only going to be running for 7min I will try to push the pace faster than my 8min pace of 4:30.


I will rephrase the question...what were the previous 4 VO2 max sessions you completed?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16106
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do a Brick run after my VO2 intervals on the Wattbike (5x5 min 2 RI). It's actually a good way to build-up some TSS before the run.

The intensity is guided by time at a % of FTP, not by repeating to fatigue as described above.
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 831
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:

The intensity is guided by time at a % of FTP, not by repeating to fatigue as described above.


Sorry you have misunderstood me.

TR is also a % of FTP. My description was simply how it felt in an attempt to explain why they are difficult to complete.

explorerJC wrote:
Considering the need to be reasonably fresh to take advantage of these sessions, the recovery time required and the athlete feedback from a couple of those in this thread, i would be considering the suitability of the set for the athlete's objectives and/or the suitability of the athlete for the set...



In the TR plans the Vo2 Max set always come on Tuesday after a Monday rest day. so they are as fresh as possible, In my case over 48hours of rest!

They are also Progressively introduced, which I think you were getting at with you question to Murph333

In the base they are introduced as 1min repeats then 2 mins then finally 3. These are introduced incrementally with rest weeks to limit fatigue along with instructions to alter the % based on perceived Fatigue and previous performance.

During the Build the intensities are lowered but the durations incrementally lengthened, they don't just drop you on a 5x5 vo2 max!

Again with rest weeks to help reduce fatigue. Again its always Tuesday when freshest with other sessions throughout the week.

Finally for the specialty the Vo2 Max work is all but dropped, very little time is spent above 100% reducing towards the big day.

That should give you a little understanding how they plans are laid out, its not as arbitrary as you seem to think.


Whether the Vo2 Max sets are suitable for TinPot, I couldn't say. but personally I wouldn't be without them. As brutal as they feel they also work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 6 of 7
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.