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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14694
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGreg wrote:
Jorgan wrote:

The intensity is guided by time at a % of FTP, not by repeating to fatigue as described above.


Sorry you have misunderstood me.

TR is also a % of FTP. My description was simply how it felt in an attempt to explain why they are difficult to complete.

explorerJC wrote:
Considering the need to be reasonably fresh to take advantage of these sessions, the recovery time required and the athlete feedback from a couple of those in this thread, i would be considering the suitability of the set for the athlete's objectives and/or the suitability of the athlete for the set...



In the TR plans the Vo2 Max set always come on Tuesday after a Monday rest day. so they are as fresh as possible, In my case over 48hours of rest!

They are also Progressively introduced, which I think you were getting at with you question to Murph333

In the base they are introduced as 1min repeats then 2 mins then finally 3. These are introduced incrementally with rest weeks to limit fatigue along with instructions to alter the % based on perceived Fatigue and previous performance.

During the Build the intensities are lowered but the durations incrementally lengthened, they don't just drop you on a 5x5 vo2 max!

Again with rest weeks to help reduce fatigue. Again its always Tuesday when freshest with other sessions throughout the week.

Finally for the specialty the Vo2 Max work is all but dropped, very little time is spent above 100% reducing towards the big day.

That should give you a little understanding how they plans are laid out, its not as arbitrary as you seem to think.


Whether the Vo2 Max sets are suitable for TinPot, I couldn't say. but personally I wouldn't be without them. As brutal as they feel they also work.


that's well explained - thanks - i too wouldn't be without them, but from the explanations above they sound more like they are working too hard...
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2249
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SGreg wrote:
Jorgan wrote:

The intensity is guided by time at a % of FTP, not by repeating to fatigue as described above.


Sorry you have misunderstood me.

TR is also a % of FTP. My description was simply how it felt in an attempt to explain why they are difficult to complete.

explorerJC wrote:
Considering the need to be reasonably fresh to take advantage of these sessions, the recovery time required and the athlete feedback from a couple of those in this thread, i would be considering the suitability of the set for the athlete's objectives and/or the suitability of the athlete for the set...



In the TR plans the Vo2 Max set always come on Tuesday after a Monday rest day. so they are as fresh as possible, In my case over 48hours of rest!

They are also Progressively introduced, which I think you were getting at with you question to Murph333

In the base they are introduced as 1min repeats then 2 mins then finally 3. These are introduced incrementally with rest weeks to limit fatigue along with instructions to alter the % based on perceived Fatigue and previous performance.

During the Build the intensities are lowered but the durations incrementally lengthened, they don't just drop you on a 5x5 vo2 max!

Again with rest weeks to help reduce fatigue. Again its always Tuesday when freshest with other sessions throughout the week.

Finally for the specialty the Vo2 Max work is all but dropped, very little time is spent above 100% reducing towards the big day.

That should give you a little understanding how they plans are laid out, its not as arbitrary as you seem to think.


Whether the Vo2 Max sets are suitable for TinPot, I couldn't say. but personally I wouldn't be without them. As brutal as they feel they also work.


that's well explained - thanks - i too wouldn't be without them, but from the explanations above they sound more like they are working too hard...


VO2 Max intervals are in swim bike and run, these tend to be:

Tuesday Bike intervals
Wednesday Run intervals
Friday Swim intervals

These session's intervals are sometimes 'all out' sprinting sometimes VO2max, and aren't always the only interval sessions in the week.

In Speciality Full Distance High Volume, they are not dropped - hence my question upthread. TR has responded that they are important to maintain.

I usually do a tempo run in the evening after the Bike interval session in the afternoon or morning. Not ideal but hey ho.

-----

Any thoughts on whether my TP calculated FTP is good for TR?
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14694
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SGreg wrote:
Jorgan wrote:

The intensity is guided by time at a % of FTP, not by repeating to fatigue as described above.


Sorry you have misunderstood me.

TR is also a % of FTP. My description was simply how it felt in an attempt to explain why they are difficult to complete.

explorerJC wrote:
Considering the need to be reasonably fresh to take advantage of these sessions, the recovery time required and the athlete feedback from a couple of those in this thread, i would be considering the suitability of the set for the athlete's objectives and/or the suitability of the athlete for the set...



In the TR plans the Vo2 Max set always come on Tuesday after a Monday rest day. so they are as fresh as possible, In my case over 48hours of rest!

They are also Progressively introduced, which I think you were getting at with you question to Murph333

In the base they are introduced as 1min repeats then 2 mins then finally 3. These are introduced incrementally with rest weeks to limit fatigue along with instructions to alter the % based on perceived Fatigue and previous performance.

During the Build the intensities are lowered but the durations incrementally lengthened, they don't just drop you on a 5x5 vo2 max!

Again with rest weeks to help reduce fatigue. Again its always Tuesday when freshest with other sessions throughout the week.

Finally for the specialty the Vo2 Max work is all but dropped, very little time is spent above 100% reducing towards the big day.

That should give you a little understanding how they plans are laid out, its not as arbitrary as you seem to think.


Whether the Vo2 Max sets are suitable for TinPot, I couldn't say. but personally I wouldn't be without them. As brutal as they feel they also work.


that's well explained - thanks - i too wouldn't be without them, but from the explanations above they sound more like they are working too hard...


VO2 Max intervals are in swim bike and run, these tend to be:

Tuesday Bike intervals
Wednesday Run intervals
Friday Swim intervals

These session's intervals are sometimes 'all out' sprinting sometimes VO2max, and aren't always the only interval sessions in the week.

In Speciality Full Distance High Volume, they are not dropped - hence my question upthread. TR has responded that they are important to maintain.

I usually do a tempo run in the evening after the Bike interval session in the afternoon or morning. Not ideal but hey ho.

-----

Any thoughts on whether my TP calculated FTP is good for TR?


why do you need to sprint?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:

VO2 Max intervals are in swim bike and run, these tend to be:

Tuesday Bike intervals
Wednesday Run intervals
Friday Swim intervals

These session's intervals are sometimes 'all out' sprinting sometimes VO2max, and aren't always the only interval sessions in the week.

In Speciality Full Distance High Volume, they are not dropped - hence my question upthread. TR has responded that they are important to maintain.

I usually do a tempo run in the evening after the Bike interval session in the afternoon or morning. Not ideal but hey ho.

-----

Any thoughts on whether my TP calculated FTP is good for TR?

On the last point, from my experience I would say yes. If your FTP is calculated in accordance with the TR principles, then my experience is the subsequent sessions are of the relevant intensity by design. That said, they do advise you to take your own body's advice if stuff is just feeling unachievable. Some people just might not be able to hit 130+ % of FTP, even if their FTP is perfectly calculated.

The thing that jumped out at me from the above is you are doing the high volume plan. 4-5 sessions a week on the turbo, in excess of 10hrs, before you even factor in swim and run.

They also have you doing c14k of swimming per week, plus between 5 and 6 hours of running. That's a serious amount of training!

I would suggest that unless you are in the luxury position of not having to work, which is not the case, that's too much volume to properly be able to rest and recover.

When I've done TR plans, I've generally only ever done the low volume plans, in order to feel like I can still execute swim and run sessions around a FT job. The last block, I have been following a mid volume plan, but not doing all of the sessions as life has got in the way.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
why do you need to sprint?

The sprints are all within the swim interval session from what I can see. The running intervals are all sessions like 6*4mins with c3mins recovery.

I have to say, I've only ever used TR for biking. I do my own stuff / club sessions for swim and run.
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2249
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:

VO2 Max intervals are in swim bike and run, these tend to be:

Tuesday Bike intervals
Wednesday Run intervals
Friday Swim intervals

These session's intervals are sometimes 'all out' sprinting sometimes VO2max, and aren't always the only interval sessions in the week.

In Speciality Full Distance High Volume, they are not dropped - hence my question upthread. TR has responded that they are important to maintain.

I usually do a tempo run in the evening after the Bike interval session in the afternoon or morning. Not ideal but hey ho.

-----

Any thoughts on whether my TP calculated FTP is good for TR?

On the last point, from my experience I would say yes. If your FTP is calculated in accordance with the TR principles, then my experience is the subsequent sessions are of the relevant intensity by design. That said, they do advise you to take your own body's advice if stuff is just feeling unachievable. Some people just might not be able to hit 130+ % of FTP, even if their FTP is perfectly calculated.

The thing that jumped out at me from the above is you are doing the high volume plan. 4-5 sessions a week on the turbo, in excess of 10hrs, before you even factor in swim and run.

They also have you doing c14k of swimming per week, plus between 5 and 6 hours of running. That's a serious amount of training!

I would suggest that unless you are in the luxury position of not having to work, which is not the case, that's too much volume to properly be able to rest and recover.

When I've done TR plans, I've generally only ever done the low volume plans, in order to feel like I can still execute swim and run sessions around a FT job. The last block, I have been following a mid volume plan, but not doing all of the sessions as life has got in the way.


I suspect TP calculations are not equivalent so I'll hold fire until TR responds.

TP would (I am deducing) be using NP, and the nature of my time trial, there were no clearing efforts or warm ups.
https://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en-us/articles/204071934-How-to-Calculate-Threshold-Power-Heart-Rate-or-Pace

TR recommends for outdoor testing Avg Power, with warm ups including high intensity similar to the indoor testing protocol.

I have no idea how much variance this would cause but it does suggest to me that my TT power file would give a higher value through TP.

http://blog.trainerroad.com/ftp-testing-outdoors-vs-indoors/
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, sorry, misread TP as TR. Thought you were more asking about eJC's point about whether a trainerroad FTP test actually gives you the right baseline for future trainerroad sessions. But I now see you were asking about the number computed by training peaks.

My general point to your volume (if following the high volume plan precisely across all disciplines) is still worthy of consideration for a cause of your plateau. Remember it is not the training that makes you improve, its the recovery and adaption from that training.
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 854
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree with Stenard in so much as I have only ever done a low volume plan. I simply look at the mid / high and can't imagine where I could find the time for that + job, let alone a life.

And again I only really follow the bike, often my runs / swim coincide with the TR plan but that structure of the set is down to me.

And I still miss lots of session even at that!
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Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to fit more work in, I get enough grief from the missus for the time I spend out of the house as it is and that was before she re-started running.
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed on volume - mid was fine as I was laying off the swim during base and working. I wasn't losing weight and wasn't working so I switched to High Volume. I've now switched back to Mid. Three swims, four bikes, four runs. Also resolves the VO2max question as those runs are switched to tempo runs.

I assume I will hit 80% of any plan, as life gets in the way and turbos explode, etc. Just today after a turbo session the pain cave is flooded!

I realised with the TP vs TR debate I was only looking at a 4% variation from 230 to 240, so upped the intensity to +4/5% and I'll see how it plays out.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2249
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feet up last week from the TrainerRoad advice and an Achilles warning. Just two turbos and a long swim.

Two weeks to IM70.3 UK...easing back into training today with an hour turbo and an hour run at moderate pace.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Murph333




Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugh been a bit of a off week for me. I have missed about 4 scheduled workouts this week, just been feeling pretty flat and tired.

This week will hopefully be a recovery week and then back at it for 2 more hard weeks, then 2 taper until IMUK

sucks feeling burnt out.
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2249
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This last 8 week block of training has been a mess. Recovery from Pays D'Aix 70.3, overtraining warning from TrainerRoad, Achilles/calf treatment, recovering from UK 70.3, good grief I've missed about half the sessions!

Back on it this week for weeks 7 and 8 nominally tapering, in reality still recovering imo. Nice to be organised again though.

Last brick today, only a 1hr40 "long" run to do, one final 3hr turbo and a 3300m swim...all at easy/moderate exertion so nothing to be concerned with.

The final week has fewer sessions and, surprisingly perhaps a small amount of intervals on the bike and run the day before
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 854
Location: High Peak

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 week and I start my final 8 weeks plan....can't wait Laughing

Currently doing unstructured training, which tends to mean I'm doing much less.
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