Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Lightweight running shoe (& issues with Nike Flyknit any

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Gear
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dazzmaster




Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Lightweight running shoe (& issues with Nike Flyknit any Reply with quote

Hi,

For a good few years I have beer running on Asics gel J33s, but noticed Asics stopped making them, so decided to give Nike a try.

Having run for around 6 weeks on the Flyknit RN (minimalist, neutral) shoes, I keep getting a fair bit of pain in the front/'ball'? of the foot, just where my stride lands (am a front-foot striker). In just about any other pair of shoes I have had these issues were gone after a couple of weeks of breaking in. This tends to trigger for me around 12km into runs, not ideal given the long runs I do are around 20-25km.

Anyone experiencing similar issues with Nikes?
And perhaps any recommendations on alternatives that do not break the bank?

cheers
dazz
_________________
Vitoria Gasteiz Long Course '17 (forthcoming Wink
Copenhagen IM '16
Alp D'Huez Long Course '14
...
what next? Smile)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 2163
Location: Freezing my nads off in Aberdoom

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I switched to 'barefoot' running a few years ago which solved many feet issues. The FFS improved many areas of my biomechanics.

I used to run in Asics (DS Trainer) prior to this. But this barefoot progression took me from Vibram 5-fingers to what I use now - Saucony Peregrines - very lightweight, minimal cushioning. Really recommend them.

Someone with more technical know-how on feet mechanics will be along soon to give you more clever advice. Smile
_________________
BLOG now updating again!
In a world where I feel so small, I can't stop thinking big...

My 15 minutes of fame
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
I switched to 'barefoot' running a few years ago which solved many feet issues. The FFS improved many areas of my biomechanics.

I used to run in Asics (DS Trainer) prior to this. But this barefoot progression took me from Vibram 5-fingers to what I use now - Saucony Peregrines - very lightweight, minimal cushioning. Really recommend them.

Someone with more technical know-how on feet mechanics will be along soon to give you more clever advice. Smile


Do you mean minimalist?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Lightweight running shoe (& issues with Nike Flyknit Reply with quote

dazzmaster wrote:
Hi,

For a good few years I have beer running on Asics gel J33s, but noticed Asics stopped making them, so decided to give Nike a try.

Having run for around 6 weeks on the Flyknit RN (minimalist, neutral) shoes, I keep getting a fair bit of pain in the front/'ball'? of the foot, just where my stride lands (am a front-foot striker). In just about any other pair of shoes I have had these issues were gone after a couple of weeks of breaking in. This tends to trigger for me around 12km into runs, not ideal given the long runs I do are around 20-25km.

Anyone experiencing similar issues with Nikes?
And perhaps any recommendations on alternatives that do not break the bank?

cheers
dazz


There is not much cushioning in forefoot of the Nike shoe (not sure what's in the Asics to compare), how have you changed your biomx to accommodate the lack of cushioning? What part of the forefoot are you landing on? Has this changed between shoes?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dazzmaster




Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Lightweight running shoe (& issues with Nike Flyknit Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for your questions explorer JC.

explorerJC wrote:
There is not much cushioning in forefoot of the Nike shoe (not sure what's in the Asics to compare), how have you changed your biomx to accommodate the lack of cushioning?


I don't think so - have for a few seasons how had quite high cadence that I worked hard to build on in the winter. Thinking about it, when running on tarmac there is no much issue, but on trails - in particular with small rocks - every now and again I get a rock kind of 'stinking the under foot' - almost feels like it is piercing through the sole which obviously is not happening in reality, but kind of hurts...

Would this be solved by more cushioning in this area? My heel never touches the ground.

explorerJC wrote:
What part of the forefoot are you landing on?

Not sure how to explain it - the bit just below the line of the toes, before the arch of the foot - so quite far forward I would say.


explorerJC wrote:
Has this changed between shoes?


Nope, tried to keep the same posture and biomechanics, the main thing that changed is how the feet feel after the run. Nikes are a little lighter but my overall cadence has stayed at around 90 per leg p/m.

Any thoughts?
_________________
Vitoria Gasteiz Long Course '17 (forthcoming Wink
Copenhagen IM '16
Alp D'Huez Long Course '14
...
what next? Smile)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Lightweight running shoe (& issues with Nike Flyknit Reply with quote

dazzmaster wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
There is not much cushioning in forefoot of the Nike shoe (not sure what's in the Asics to compare), how have you changed your biomx to accommodate the lack of cushioning?


I don't think so - have for a few seasons how had quite high cadence that I worked hard to build on in the winter. Thinking about it, when running on tarmac there is no much issue, but on trails - in particular with small rocks - every now and again I get a rock kind of 'stinking the under foot' - almost feels like it is piercing through the sole which obviously is not happening in reality, but kind of hurts...

Would this be solved by more cushioning in this area?


Cadence is only part of the answer, you must also learn to reduce the force on footstrike...you can compensate with more cushioning whilst you achieve this, but, ultimately, this just delays the process...

dazzmaster wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
What part of the forefoot are you landing on?

Not sure how to explain it - the bit just below the line of the toes, before the arch of the foot - so quite far forward I would say.


explorerJC wrote:
Has this changed between shoes?


Nope, tried to keep the same posture and biomechanics, the main thing that changed is how the feet feel after the run. Nikes are a little lighter but my overall cadence has stayed at around 90 per leg p/m.

Any thoughts?


lateral? medial? how do you know it hasn't changed? what does the wear pattern look like? do you only use your shoes for running?

dazzmaster wrote:


My heel never touches the ground.



why not? are you a sprinter?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dazzmaster




Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Lightweight running shoe (& issues with Nike Flyknit Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
dazzmaster wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
There is not much cushioning in forefoot of the Nike shoe (not sure what's in the Asics to compare), how have you changed your biomx to accommodate the lack of cushioning?


I don't think so - have for a few seasons how had quite high cadence that I worked hard to build on in the winter. Thinking about it, when running on tarmac there is no much issue, but on trails - in particular with small rocks - every now and again I get a rock kind of 'stinking the under foot' - almost feels like it is piercing through the sole which obviously is not happening in reality, but kind of hurts...

Would this be solved by more cushioning in this area?


Cadence is only part of the answer, you must also learn to reduce the force on footstrike...you can compensate with more cushioning whilst you achieve this, but, ultimately, this just delays the process...

I thought getting the cushioning helps with any road debris/uneven surfaces, which would in any case cause irritation to the sole. My ground contact time as measured by garmin is around 220ms, and has not changed since changing shoes - so I figured that the extra cushioning would do the job. Is there anything else at play that is worth considering?

explorerJC wrote:

dazzmaster wrote:


explorerJC wrote:
What part of the forefoot are you landing on?

Not sure how to explain it - the bit just below the line of the toes, before the arch of the foot - so quite far forward I would say.


explorerJC wrote:
Has this changed between shoes?


Nope, tried to keep the same posture and biomechanics, the main thing that changed is how the feet feel after the run. Nikes are a little lighter but my overall cadence has stayed at around 90 per leg p/m.

Any thoughts?


lateral? medial? how do you know it hasn't changed? what does the wear pattern look like? do you only use your shoes for running?

Wear pattern is non-existent for now, and the previous shoes show very little wear that I can actually see - and it seems fairly even, though I an no expert and would not know how to measure it. If anything I think I push off more from the inside of the foot rather than the middle, but again have not ever thought about this properly. If there are any technique tips you can recommend I would appreciate...

explorerJC wrote:

dazzmaster wrote:


My heel never touches the ground.



why not? are you a sprinter?

Nope, quite the opposite, am training for a second IM distance. When I said the heel never touches the ground that may be a slight exaggeration - I mean there is never weight/force coming through it, I try to run by landing on the front foot and almost immediately pushing off, as recommended by a physio/running coach that was fixing my ITB a year or so back. Never had issues since switching to this technique with any part of the leg, except now with the very sole of the feet with the new shoes...

Many thanks for all pointers explorerJC, and for your thoughts Gus. Any other ideas? And any recommendation on shoes that would deal with a bit more cushioning and remain neutral/minimalist, or am I just trying to fix the symptoms and not the root cause?
_________________
Vitoria Gasteiz Long Course '17 (forthcoming Wink
Copenhagen IM '16
Alp D'Huez Long Course '14
...
what next? Smile)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

extra cushioning can help, but may lead you to applying more force on foot strike...Altra* shoes seem to strike a reasonable balance...

220ms may not be sufficient to allow anything but the fore foot to may contact with the ground. Allowing a little more time to enable a Land/Load/Lever/Lift effect will fully engage all the key running muscles...rather than pushing off, try to just lift up...but you will need to offset the reduction in force by improved biomx...

it is quite possible that you toe off through the inside (medial) with the big toe at the last point of contact 9as best as shoes allow)

* they sadly also have a couple of short comings too, like most running shoes...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dazzmaster




Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
extra cushioning can help, but may lead you to applying more force on foot strike...Altra* shoes seem to strike a reasonable balance...

220ms may not be sufficient to allow anything but the fore foot to may contact with the ground. Allowing a little more time to enable a Land/Load/Lever/Lift effect will fully engage all the key running muscles...rather than pushing off, try to just lift up...but you will need to offset the reduction in force by improved biomx...

it is quite possible that you toe off through the inside (medial) with the big toe at the last point of contact 9as best as shoes allow)

* they sadly also have a couple of short comings too, like most running shoes...


Many thanks for these pointers, will try leaving a little more ground contact time and feeling the lift off through the glute (I think this is what you are referring to, in my simple mind Wink

Gave it a try during a shorter 10km run today, and felt pretty good and more powerful, activating the glute more than before, but with no noticeable change in ground contact time as per the garmin... will experiment over the next few weeks, including on longer runs.
_________________
Vitoria Gasteiz Long Course '17 (forthcoming Wink
Copenhagen IM '16
Alp D'Huez Long Course '14
...
what next? Smile)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 855
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Inov8 Road-X Lite 155 for shorter races, 10km and below. They have a 3mm drop but are very light but have enough cushioning for me. I need a bit of cushioning as I have a Morton's neuroma so vibrams, etc. just don't work for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
I use Inov8 Road-X Lite 155 for shorter races, 10km and below. They have a 3mm drop but are very light but have enough cushioning for me. I need a bit of cushioning as I have a Morton's neuroma so vibrams, etc. just don't work for me.


that's still a pretty minimalist shoe! Great for racing and track work Smile
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Andy916




Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 605
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the Road x-lite 155, use them for training and racing, up to marathon distance, and my first ultra (50k) this coming Saturday. Problem is that I can't find another pair and Inov8 have now shied away from the really minimal end.

Dazz - it's difficult to diagnose remotely/non-visually but I would think about the whole cycle rather than just foot contact. This is the coach I've got the most from in recent years http://keithbatemancoaching.com and he'll be in UK June/July. Envious of your VItoria trip; it's one that I considered for this year too.
_________________
2016: Triathlon X Windemere, Monster Ely half, Evergreen 228 Chamonix
2015: Wasdale X, IM Wales, Rimini half, Ely half, Strathpuffer 24hr
Previous: IM Lanza, IM UK, Forestman, Outlaw, Mallorca half, XTERRA, IoM e2e, Dart 10k, 3PYR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dazzmaster wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
extra cushioning can help, but may lead you to applying more force on foot strike...Altra* shoes seem to strike a reasonable balance...

220ms may not be sufficient to allow anything but the fore foot to may contact with the ground. Allowing a little more time to enable a Land/Load/Lever/Lift effect will fully engage all the key running muscles...rather than pushing off, try to just lift up...but you will need to offset the reduction in force by improved biomx...

it is quite possible that you toe off through the inside (medial) with the big toe at the last point of contact 9as best as shoes allow)

* they sadly also have a couple of short comings too, like most running shoes...


Many thanks for these pointers, will try leaving a little more ground contact time and feeling the lift off through the glute (I think this is what you are referring to, in my simple mind Wink

Gave it a try during a shorter 10km run today, and felt pretty good and more powerful, activating the glute more than before, but with no noticeable change in ground contact time as per the garmin... will experiment over the next few weeks, including on longer runs.


one thing in isolation may not solve the problem...running is a sequence of movements and positions and good form is the effective amalgamation of all of them...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Gear All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.