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Power Pacing on Hilly Rides, help please
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Miketri




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Power Pacing on Hilly Rides, help please Reply with quote

So my FTP is 280W, 70% 196W

I want to use 75% for IM training 210W target. (Zurich 17)

However on Hilly Rides such as a quick lunch ride I have just done the data is all a bit confusing to me and not representing the 75% above.

1hr 20, IF 81%, Avg 193W, NP 231W

So yes there is a VI gap to work on, and it suggest balance of climbing and downhills needs improvement, but should I then use just Avg Power as ride gauge and not be so concerned with IF ?
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In an 80 minute lunch ride, you need to forget the numbers to compare with the pacing events of an IM.

You should use the power data for whatever the training session you want is (if you've got no idea, just get it as big as you can Wink

For the actual IM event, you want to pace the event as evenly as possibly, with only very small increases for the hills. Which would lead to IF being more meaningful as a direct measure.
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Miketri




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally agree, i guess I wasn't really comparing the two rides, but on a LD ride when its hilly, I assume whats it telling me is that if I 'manage' the hills, and the downs don't generate significant Watts, then my flat power will need to be upped to get the Avg Pwr to even out?
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iwaters




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah so you want your VI to be less than 1.05 so that NP and AP are close. Assuming you do that then you will need to go harder on the flats to up the AP/NP value.

I am making a massive assumption here, but based on your FTP (which is same as mine) and the fact that hills are pushing your NP you are a larger chap? Either that or you are riding up some sizable grades.

I am big and heavy. When I did a HIM I found it really hard to stop the power spiking on hills and to keep NP in range. For the race I swapped to a compact chainset to make the gearing easier. On the double I couldn't pedal slow enough to keep power down. You either need to make it easier to go up hills (reduce weight, change gearing) or ride more slowly up them.

You should use NP as the target as this represents the physiological cost of the ride.
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Miketri




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never been called sizeable, but I definitely push too much power up the grades, although when I do manage the power climbing I then end up with a bigger deficit after the down hill, and yes its very hilly where I am so its knocking my VI all over the place as my skills have to yet balanced this.

On the downs I get a lot of power off or low power time as pushing 100W+ whilst at +40mph is heading for terminal velocity Surprised

But what I don't want to be doing is thrashing the flats also just to make up for the downhills, so I seem to be in the credit and deficit challenge and I want to figure it out in prep. for Zurich to have a better ride > run.
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Chrace




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1h20 lunch break?!? Wtf?
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moonmonkey02




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

corrected

Chrace wrote:
lunch break?!? Wtf?

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Miketri




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:
1h20 lunch break?!? Wtf?


And it was a brick session Very Happy
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miketri wrote:
Chrace wrote:
1h20 lunch break?!? Wtf?


And it was a brick session Very Happy


works for me Smile
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the OP....learn to spin up those hills...
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Miketri




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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, the are the techniques I need to develop with the base impression of my riding style. Too much trying to keep with the mates group and not working on technique.
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mattsurf




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Power Pacing on Hilly Rides, help please Reply with quote

Miketri wrote:
So my FTP is 280W, 70% 196W

I want to use 75% for IM training 210W target. (Zurich 17)

However on Hilly Rides such as a quick lunch ride I have just done the data is all a bit confusing to me and not representing the 75% above.

1hr 20, IF 81%, Avg 193W, NP 231W

So yes there is a VI gap to work on, and it suggest balance of climbing and downhills needs improvement, but should I then use just Avg Power as ride gauge and not be so concerned with IF ?


That looks almost identical to my Hilly rides as well

50k ride, ascent 520m, 1h37, IF 78.5%, Avg 189W, NP 230W

my FTP is also 280, I weigh 73kg and 174cm tall, so not too big

What is VI Gap? I have not come across this before

This ride may not be entirely representative, I was cycling pretty gently, focusing on keeping my cadence up, however, I was deliberately pushing hard on the 3 big climbs, maintaining 300-400W. However, in general I do cycle like this, and normally do push hard on the climbs, I am not the best at descending, and at the moment somewhat cautious, which means that I am pushing out almost no power on the descents.

Over the winter, I really focused on improving my cadence, however, now that I am back on the road again, I am struggling to keep my cadence up - for example on a Turbo, my cadence is usually 90-92 rpm, on the 130k sportive last weekend, my cadence was 78, and 50k yesterday (when I was deliberately focusing on cadence) my average was 83
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PCP




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely there is no issue with lower cadence on an outdoor ride as you will naturally have lower cadence on steep climbs and zero on parts of descents.

I am 90-92 on turbo and relatively flat ground but climbing and descending will always bring it down.

VI is NP/AP. For a perfect TT & triathlon leg they should be as close to equal as possible but under 1.05 in a fairly hilly tri.
My VI for IMWales was 1.18 which is really bad.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCP wrote:
Surely there is no issue with lower cadence on an outdoor ride as you will naturally have lower cadence on steep climbs and zero on parts of descents.

On most Garmin's, you can choose to include or exclude zero's in the averages for power and cadence.

Whilst convention says you need to retain zeros in your power numbers (to get meaningful VI numbers etc), you can certainly eliminate them from cadence averages so that the average reflects the cadence for all points you are actually pedalling.

EDIT - just double checked, and whilst these options existed on the 910xt, and exist on Edge devices, on the F3 and 920 the watches are automatically set to include zeros for power but exclude for cadence, and this can't be changed. Which is how I had my old 910 set up anyway.


Last edited by stenard on Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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TRO Saracen




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's well worth practising trying to ride rolling/hilly terrain with a low VI; makes it easier to do on race day especially if you are used to smashing up hills as a training workout.

Simply put, NP is the amount you are taking out of your body and AP is the amount of force you push through the pedals. So you can ride a rolling course with the same NP (effort/fatigue) yet push more force through the pedals over the duration by capping climbs etc.

That is well worth maximising.

It's not quite as simple as riding at VI 1.00 is faster either as you would be expending a lot of energy pushing pedals for little benefit (downhill, when air resistance is huge) when a bit more effort uphill (when gravity is the enemy, not wind resistance) would bring more bang for your effort buck.

Try and keep it simple: Cap it at say 20-25w above your target race for climbs if possible, and really avoid anything over FTP unless it's the only way to get up the hill.

Seen many guys have superb rides backed with good runs on hilly IM courses at around VI 1.05, so there is probably a sweetspot around there.
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