Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
The difference in biking HR and running max HR????
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tahr




Joined: 12 Feb 2015
Posts: 154
Location: South West Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: The difference in biking HR and running max HR???? Reply with quote

After 10 years of endurance sports I have decided to train via Heart rate, desperate times mean desperate measures. LOL. (I have not been in consistent training since October, due to a knee injury, then a bike accident and now a chest infection ahhhggg). But with the Celtman in June I need to maximise my training time.

Last week before getting ill, I did a track speed session, I only did half of it due to a injury from the bike crash niggling, I got a max HR in that of 186 bpm, I later in the week I did a 30 minutes LTHR time trial on the bike, and my max was 154 bpm but my LTHR was 131 bpm. This seems very low, is this cause for concern?
With illness when is it OK to go back training? I am thinking once my HR is within 10 bpm of normal resting?
Any advice welcome.

Tahr
_________________
http://www.annananddistrictathleticclub.co.uk/index.asp?pageid=578677

Fitness forged in the furnace of competition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LTHR has a couple of definitions...how was yours calculated...and what were you expecting/hoping?

what was the speed session?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tahr




Joined: 12 Feb 2015
Posts: 154
Location: South West Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the LTHR I rode my bike for a warm up, then went as hard as I could for 10 mins, set the Garmin for another lap and then did another 20 minutes as hard as I could, I took my LTHR from the average HR for the 20 minutes, rode on a flat road. As per JF book.

The speed session was 200m repeats with 30 seconds recovery.

I guess I have two concerns first I was surprised at the max differences in peaks, I think I could have gone a little higher in the running, although I consider myself a runner rather than a cyclist.

Second I found riding in zone 2 at the moment pretty tough, while everybody else seems to say it is too easy, is this lack of bike condition (not really rode the bike much for 6 months?)

Thanks for the replies

Tahr

ATB

Tahr
_________________
http://www.annananddistrictathleticclub.co.uk/index.asp?pageid=578677

Fitness forged in the furnace of competition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tahr wrote:
For the LTHR I rode my bike for a warm up, then went as hard as I could for 10 mins, set the Garmin for another lap and then did another 20 minutes as hard as I could, I took my LTHR from the average HR for the 20 minutes, rode on a flat road. As per JF book.

The speed session was 200m repeats with 30 seconds recovery.

I guess I have two concerns first I was surprised at the max differences in peaks, I think I could have gone a little higher in the running, although I consider myself a runner rather than a cyclist.

Second I found riding in zone 2 at the moment pretty tough, while everybody else seems to say it is too easy, is this lack of bike condition (not really rode the bike much for 6 months?)

Thanks for the replies

Tahr

ATB

Tahr


well, firstly, as a generalisation, your running max will almost always be higher than your cycling because you are supporting your bodyweight...the exception being if you are a trained cyclist who doesn't run...

secondly, if you are running fast and have a recovery interval, you will be able to work at a higher rate...with a similar session in cycling you would probably find your max HR on the bike.....equally, if you tried to run for any sustained period you would almost certainly not reach such a high HR...

thirdly, if you were still fatigued from the run, this may have influenced the results, to this you can add if you were forming an illness...

fourthly, your test protocol wouldn't favour the best result

fifthly, calculating zones from an average HR will always be open to interpretation...and I am still unsure how 131 represents your LTHR

If you are struggling to ride in Zone 2 (how have you calculated this zone ?) this may be the level, your lack of cycle training (why would you expect to be able to ride after 6 months off if you don't have a cycling background?) your lack of cycling skill and efficiency...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tahr




Joined: 12 Feb 2015
Posts: 154
Location: South West Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank Explorer JC

What you say makes sense, I guess it just needs somebody standing back and looking at the situation.

I didn't feel fatigued after the speed session, 20 minutes intervals, plus warm up and cool down, as you say I could have been sicking, but felt fine right up until the night before.

I used Joe Friel table to work out my zone 2, the implementation of this is all new to me although I obviously have been aware of it for years.

Thanks

Tahr
_________________
http://www.annananddistrictathleticclub.co.uk/index.asp?pageid=578677

Fitness forged in the furnace of competition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 2163
Location: Freezing my nads off in Aberdoom

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been training to HR for yonks.

Having had my LT medically/clinically measured accurately (10 years ago, and again last week) - there have always been quite significant differences in these 'rule of thumb' ways of calculating it and what the 'real' value is.... so be careful relying on these.

Same for Max HR - there are a few 'rules of thumb' for this as well which were absolutely miles out - on both run and bike.

Also a note on perception/perceived effort. I've been training for the last month or so based on my 10yr old LTHR thinking it felt about 'right'. I was remeasured last week which showed my LTHR at 24bpm lower than where I 'felt' it still was... Shocked
_________________
BLOG now updating again!
In a world where I feel so small, I can't stop thinking big...

My 15 minutes of fame
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
I've been training to HR for yonks.

Having had my LT medically/clinically measured accurately (10 years ago, and again last week) - there have always been quite significant differences in these 'rule of thumb' ways of calculating it and what the 'real' value is.... so be careful relying on these.

Same for Max HR - there are a few 'rules of thumb' for this as well which were absolutely miles out - on both run and bike.

Also a note on perception/perceived effort. I've been training for the last month or so based on my 10yr old LTHR thinking it felt about 'right'. I was remeasured last week which showed my LTHR at 24bpm lower than where I 'felt' it still was... Shocked


Ouch...you've got some (easy) work to do then Gus Smile
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 15493
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My HR for any given effort is always higher for running; I started out as a runner too, so this was always going to happen.
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 15493
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My HR for any given effort is always higher for running; I started out as a runner too, so this was always going to happen.
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 2163
Location: Freezing my nads off in Aberdoom

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Gus wrote:
I've been training to HR for yonks.

Having had my LT medically/clinically measured accurately (10 years ago, and again last week) - there have always been quite significant differences in these 'rule of thumb' ways of calculating it and what the 'real' value is.... so be careful relying on these.

Same for Max HR - there are a few 'rules of thumb' for this as well which were absolutely miles out - on both run and bike.

Also a note on perception/perceived effort. I've been training for the last month or so based on my 10yr old LTHR thinking it felt about 'right'. I was remeasured last week which showed my LTHR at 24bpm lower than where I 'felt' it still was... Shocked


Ouch...you've got some (easy) work to do then Gus Smile


Very Happy I went out for a 6-miler the other day at my new LT and it certainly was easy. I had to walk most of it Very Happy
_________________
BLOG now updating again!
In a world where I feel so small, I can't stop thinking big...

My 15 minutes of fame
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jgav




Joined: 06 Dec 2016
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also found that (as I now have a Hr monitor) my run HR is hugely higher than my bike HR for the same perceived effort. My average HR on a long ish slowish run is 165 whereas my HR during efforts on the bike only gets to 170 max. I think it's because I have come from running and am relatively untrained on the bike.

I hope my bike training improves this as there is a long way to go in that area for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 922
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it happens I did a bike ramp test yesterday, HR maxed out at 175 but the legs gave up before the heart\lungs, but for an out of season test with not much recent cycling I was quite pleased with the general outcomes.

If I was fresh and a bit fitter I'd expect that to be a bit higher, probably 179ish so pretty close.

Running wise I'm very similar, 10k's would be around 170bpm, 5k's nearer 175 and probably getting to 182ish near the end with a push.

Always been fairly similar with running just up, when I was being tested a few years ago the tester said he'd expect the bike to be a few beats lower as your weight is supported.

FWIW, I've nearly 47 and never really knew about HR until I was in the mid 30's and started tri's etc. so not sure what I'd have been like when I was playing footie 5 times PW in my 20's.

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SwimsLikeAWalrus




Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 1417

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading this thread has made me trawl back through my data.

A few years ago I found my cycling MHR on a lengthy long hill (5 miles+) and attacked it. Twice near the top I hit 191 and felt immediate plateau so I'm convinced that at the time that was likely to be my MHR. During many hours turboing/ spinning/ cycling I've never got over that.

Runningwise knowing my cycling max was 191 I've assumed my running max was probably in the region of mid 190s.
Back to my data trawl, during a recent 10 mile multi-terrain hilly race I averaged 176bpm over the 1.45 it took me, with a max of 187. RPE I'd say I was hanging on! First female was half an hour quicker.
Looking back through my Garmin info I found a track session a few years back with a max of 209bpm. I'm guessing I must have really tried that session - it was near the end and during a 5k effort.
During a hilly trail last year I managed an average of 176 and a max of 197bpm during the race (although this 197 was in the downhill sprint to the finish and I had a rare flash of competitiveness :0)

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gus




Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 2163
Location: Freezing my nads off in Aberdoom

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.


I would doubt your LT would be this high at 48. Maffetone's rule-of-thumb is 180 minus age (plus/minus a few alterations). It's not always that accurate but it's not that far out.

Before I ever got clinically tested, I had what I called my 'forever' pace which I thought I could comfortably keep up indefinitely as I ran. I naturally assumed that was my threshold - in fact it was probably 10+bpm above my measured LT.

But then everyone's different so who knows for sure
Wink
_________________
BLOG now updating again!
In a world where I feel so small, I can't stop thinking big...

My 15 minutes of fame
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13838
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.


I would doubt your LT would be this high at 48. Maffetone's rule-of-thumb is 180 minus age (plus/minus a few alterations). It's not always that accurate but it's not that far out.

Before I ever got clinically tested, I had what I called my 'forever' pace which I thought I could comfortably keep up indefinitely as I ran. I naturally assumed that was my threshold - in fact it was probably 10+bpm above my measured LT.

But then everyone's different so who knows for sure
Wink


LT is described as the first lactate turn point and this is usually taken as 1 mmol/L above rest. This point will be both specific to the individual and to the activity. In simple terms, the prime energy system at this point is aerobic and the key fuel is fat. Theoretically, you could exercise all day just below this point.

The maximum exercise intensity an athlete can sustain for a prolonged period is below the second turnpoint; the Maximal Level Steady State and above this is the Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation. This is usually taken to be at 4 mmol/L although it varies person to person. To confuse, this is often also called the lactate threshold, but in reality and in simple terms is the anaerobic threshold.
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.