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The difference in biking HR and running max HR????
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Gus




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Gus wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.


I would doubt your LT would be this high at 48. Maffetone's rule-of-thumb is 180 minus age (plus/minus a few alterations). It's not always that accurate but it's not that far out.

Before I ever got clinically tested, I had what I called my 'forever' pace which I thought I could comfortably keep up indefinitely as I ran. I naturally assumed that was my threshold - in fact it was probably 10+bpm above my measured LT.

But then everyone's different so who knows for sure
Wink


LT is described as the first lactate turn point and this is usually taken as 1 mmol/L above rest. This point will be both specific to the individual and to the activity. In simple terms, the prime energy system at this point is aerobic and the key fuel is fat. Theoretically, you could exercise all day just below this point.

The maximum exercise intensity an athlete can sustain for a prolonged period is below the second turnpoint; the Maximal Level Steady State and above this is the Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation. This is usually taken to be at 4 mmol/L although it varies person to person. To confuse, this is often also called the lactate threshold, but in reality and in simple terms is the anaerobic threshold.


Oh bloody hell, trust you to come along and complicate everything Wink

So... which of these do you think Maffetone refers to? ie should we be training under the 1mmol/L or 4?

Bearing in mind his raison d'etre is to keep training in the aerobic zone rather than anaerobic this would imply the higher of the two? This could (obviously) make a big difference....
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SwimsLikeAWalrus




Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Gus wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.


I would doubt your LT would be this high at 48. Maffetone's rule-of-thumb is 180 minus age (plus/minus a few alterations). It's not always that accurate but it's not that far out.

Before I ever got clinically tested, I had what I called my 'forever' pace which I thought I could comfortably keep up indefinitely as I ran. I naturally assumed that was my threshold - in fact it was probably 10+bpm above my measured LT.

But then everyone's different so who knows for sure
Wink


LT is described as the first lactate turn point and this is usually taken as 1 mmol/L above rest. This point will be both specific to the individual and to the activity. In simple terms, the prime energy system at this point is aerobic and the key fuel is fat. Theoretically, you could exercise all day just below this point.

The maximum exercise intensity an athlete can sustain for a prolonged period is below the second turnpoint; the Maximal Level Steady State and above this is the Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation. This is usually taken to be at 4 mmol/L although it varies person to person. To confuse, this is often also called the lactate threshold, but in reality and in simple terms is the anaerobic threshold.


Oh bloody hell, trust you to come along and complicate everything Wink

So... which of these do you think Maffetone refers to? ie should we be training under the 1mmol/L or 4?

Bearing in mind his raison d'etre is to keep training in the aerobic zone rather than anaerobic this would imply the higher of the two? This could (obviously) make a big difference....


Don't worry Gus I didn't understand the complication!

So are you saying that I've managed to find my race pace, beyond which I don't blow up? But my LT is probably more like 166?

I'm guilty in my inconsistency in running. So am I running at a suitable race pace for myself? I was surprised that I'd maintained that HR it on the 10 miler but more surprised by the 209 during the track session.

I'll look up Maffetone! Thank you!
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gus wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Gus wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.


I would doubt your LT would be this high at 48. Maffetone's rule-of-thumb is 180 minus age (plus/minus a few alterations). It's not always that accurate but it's not that far out.

Before I ever got clinically tested, I had what I called my 'forever' pace which I thought I could comfortably keep up indefinitely as I ran. I naturally assumed that was my threshold - in fact it was probably 10+bpm above my measured LT.

But then everyone's different so who knows for sure
Wink


LT is described as the first lactate turn point and this is usually taken as 1 mmol/L above rest. This point will be both specific to the individual and to the activity. In simple terms, the prime energy system at this point is aerobic and the key fuel is fat. Theoretically, you could exercise all day just below this point.

The maximum exercise intensity an athlete can sustain for a prolonged period is below the second turnpoint; the Maximal Level Steady State and above this is the Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation. This is usually taken to be at 4 mmol/L although it varies person to person. To confuse, this is often also called the lactate threshold, but in reality and in simple terms is the anaerobic threshold.


Oh bloody hell, trust you to come along and complicate everything Wink

So... which of these do you think Maffetone refers to? ie should we be training under the 1mmol/L or 4?

Bearing in mind his raison d'etre is to keep training in the aerobic zone rather than anaerobic this would imply the higher of the two? This could (obviously) make a big difference....


no, the lower

To develop aerobic efficiency, train at the first turn point which is 1 above rest (not 1, which most people exceed the moment they start exercising although this will tend to stabilise).

To train for maximal short course performance train to perform at MLSS (although still do a lot of the above to make you more aerobically efficient and a little of the below to make you more anaerobically efficient).

To improve lactate buffering, train above MLSS for mid to long reps and recover.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14189
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:
Gus wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Gus wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.


I would doubt your LT would be this high at 48. Maffetone's rule-of-thumb is 180 minus age (plus/minus a few alterations). It's not always that accurate but it's not that far out.

Before I ever got clinically tested, I had what I called my 'forever' pace which I thought I could comfortably keep up indefinitely as I ran. I naturally assumed that was my threshold - in fact it was probably 10+bpm above my measured LT.

But then everyone's different so who knows for sure
Wink


LT is described as the first lactate turn point and this is usually taken as 1 mmol/L above rest. This point will be both specific to the individual and to the activity. In simple terms, the prime energy system at this point is aerobic and the key fuel is fat. Theoretically, you could exercise all day just below this point.

The maximum exercise intensity an athlete can sustain for a prolonged period is below the second turnpoint; the Maximal Level Steady State and above this is the Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation. This is usually taken to be at 4 mmol/L although it varies person to person. To confuse, this is often also called the lactate threshold, but in reality and in simple terms is the anaerobic threshold.


Oh bloody hell, trust you to come along and complicate everything Wink

So... which of these do you think Maffetone refers to? ie should we be training under the 1mmol/L or 4?

Bearing in mind his raison d'etre is to keep training in the aerobic zone rather than anaerobic this would imply the higher of the two? This could (obviously) make a big difference....


Don't worry Gus I didn't understand the complication!

So are you saying that I've managed to find my race pace, beyond which I don't blow up? But my LT is probably more like 166?

I'm guilty in my inconsistency in running. So am I running at a suitable race pace for myself? I was surprised that I'd maintained that HR it on the 10 miler but more surprised by the 209 during the track session.

I'll look up Maffetone! Thank you!


Training at your race pace is an effective way of establishing where it is, but comes with risk (particularly with running....swimming and cycling can be more forgiving).

If you can run all day at an HR of 166, then that may well be LT. If that's the max pace you can run 10 miles at without blowing up, then it is more likely to be MLSS for your running....

Training at LT is the best way of making you a more efficient (but as per previous post, don't train here in isolation)
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SwimsLikeAWalrus




Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 1455

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:
Gus wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Gus wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:

So the fact that I can sustain 176bpm over 10 miles does that imply that's probably around my threshold? And infact I am a lazy individual who does not embrace the concept of hard effort? These figures are consistent over time.

Thoughts?
Female 48. Being doing tri so 12 years or so.


I would doubt your LT would be this high at 48. Maffetone's rule-of-thumb is 180 minus age (plus/minus a few alterations). It's not always that accurate but it's not that far out.

Before I ever got clinically tested, I had what I called my 'forever' pace which I thought I could comfortably keep up indefinitely as I ran. I naturally assumed that was my threshold - in fact it was probably 10+bpm above my measured LT.

But then everyone's different so who knows for sure
Wink


LT is described as the first lactate turn point and this is usually taken as 1 mmol/L above rest. This point will be both specific to the individual and to the activity. In simple terms, the prime energy system at this point is aerobic and the key fuel is fat. Theoretically, you could exercise all day just below this point.

The maximum exercise intensity an athlete can sustain for a prolonged period is below the second turnpoint; the Maximal Level Steady State and above this is the Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation. This is usually taken to be at 4 mmol/L although it varies person to person. To confuse, this is often also called the lactate threshold, but in reality and in simple terms is the anaerobic threshold.


Oh bloody hell, trust you to come along and complicate everything Wink

So... which of these do you think Maffetone refers to? ie should we be training under the 1mmol/L or 4?

Bearing in mind his raison d'etre is to keep training in the aerobic zone rather than anaerobic this would imply the higher of the two? This could (obviously) make a big difference....


Don't worry Gus I didn't understand the complication!

So are you saying that I've managed to find my race pace, beyond which I don't blow up? But my LT is probably more like 166?

I'm guilty in my inconsistency in running. So am I running at a suitable race pace for myself? I was surprised that I'd maintained that HR it on the 10 miler but more surprised by the 209 during the track session.

I'll look up Maffetone! Thank you!


Training at your race pace is an effective way of establishing where it is, but comes with risk (particularly with running....swimming and cycling can be more forgiving).

If you can run all day at an HR of 166, then that may well be LT. If that's the max pace you can run 10 miles at without blowing up, then it is more likely to be MLSS for your running....

Training at LT is the best way of making you a more efficient (but as per previous post, don't train here in isolation)


Thank you both Smile

The 10 miler was indeed a hilly race and my MHR during the race of 176 (which is a frequently seen value now I've looked for it) probably is some sort of threshold point for me when running. I wonder if it is the point at which major discomfort really begins to kick in which is why I tend not to exceed it even when racing.

Another value I've noticed is 74% of my MHR (of 209) which absolutely my plod all day with very little impact on myself pace. It's probably a pace at which I do a lot of my running tbh. My mission this winter has been to run more, including racing more (to do the higher end speeds in a real situation). I do feel I am guilty of not pushing myself enough - after a very disappointing HM in a 70.3 last year.

Some further analysis to be done. Is testing worth it? I'm never going to win anything! Is experimentation based on my data enough?
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:


Thank you both Smile

The 10 miler was indeed a hilly race and my MHR during the race of 176 (which is a frequently seen value now I've looked for it) probably is some sort of threshold point for me when running. I wonder if it is the point at which major discomfort really begins to kick in which is why I tend not to exceed it even when racing.


This is almost certainly MLSS or just below 4 mmol/L

SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:




Another value I've noticed is 74% of my MHR (of 209) which absolutely my plod all day with very little impact on myself pace. It's probably a pace at which I do a lot of my running tbh.


Probably LT or 1 mmol/L above resting value

SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:


Some further analysis to be done. Is testing worth it? I'm never going to win anything! Is experimentation based on my data enough?


Absolutely...with me Smile

You appear to have sufficient experience/data to have established levels yourself, however, what good testing will give you is the guidance to make appropriate use of the numbers....
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Mungo




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Max heart rate 209......?

Are you an 18 year old sprinter?

Thats high by any standards, or have I misread this?
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Cat5 in the Hat




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Max heart rate 209......?

Are you an 18 year old sprinter?

Thats high by any standards, or have I misread this?


High perhaps by your standards. I am equally as confused by those that run fast at 140-150 bpm.

I often saw 205 at the end of a parkrun sprint and that wouldn't have been my max. We are each an experiment of one.
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SwimsLikeAWalrus




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Max heart rate 209......?

Are you an 18 year old sprinter?

Thats high by any standards, or have I misread this?



This was during a track session in November 14. It appears at the end of a 80 minute track session. Looking at my Garmin info it's in line with the rest of the session - it's just a spike in an effort! Probably some cardiac drift in there!

I'd have been 46 at the time.....

It surprised me too although in the grand scheme it is in line with other data! Done with a 310xt and the solid plastic Garmin strap.
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SwimsLikeAWalrus




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cat5 in the Hat wrote:
Mungo wrote:
Max heart rate 209......?

Are you an 18 year old sprinter?

Thats high by any standards, or have I misread this?


High perhaps by your standards. I am equally as confused by those that run fast at 140-150 bpm.

I often saw 205 at the end of a parkrun sprint and that wouldn't have been my max. We are each an experiment of one.


It was the end of an intervals session by the look of it!
I'm guessing I must just run on high revs too!
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SwimsLikeAWalrus




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:


Thank you both Smile

The 10 miler was indeed a hilly race and my MHR during the race of 176 (which is a frequently seen value now I've looked for it) probably is some sort of threshold point for me when running. I wonder if it is the point at which major discomfort really begins to kick in which is why I tend not to exceed it even when racing.


This is almost certainly MLSS or just below 4 mmol/L

SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:




Another value I've noticed is 74% of my MHR (of 209) which absolutely my plod all day with very little impact on myself pace. It's probably a pace at which I do a lot of my running tbh.


Probably LT or 1 mmol/L above resting value

SwimsLikeAWalrus wrote:


Some further analysis to be done. Is testing worth it? I'm never going to win anything! Is experimentation based on my data enough?


Absolutely...with me Smile

You appear to have sufficient experience/data to have established levels yourself, however, what good testing will give you is the guidance to make appropriate use of the numbers....


Thank you for the comments! The OP made me consider my own data. I've been very good the past few years in actually using my Garmin and the HR strap! Smile
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Mungo




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cat
That's me
28 k in 2 hours tread mill 1%
Last Sunday
Average heart rate 141 max 146

Ran a 17:51 5k a few days later obviously higher but 170 ish max for me. But as you say it seams we're are very different.
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Cat5 in the Hat




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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Cat
That's me
28 k in 2 hours tread mill 1%
Last Sunday
Average heart rate 141 max 146

Ran a 17:51 5k a few days later obviously higher but 170 ish max for me. But as you say it seams we're are very different.


Like a diesel engine Smile
I am more of a free revving 2-stroke and have to rebuilt a few times a year. That said, the first 2 years with my coach the vast majority of running was at a very low HR and a very low pace and this did help to make me more efficient.
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Mungo




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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Car I have everything except a coach and a power meter.

Heart rate and bike fit seams to have me still improving slowly.
A coach is something I wonder about?

Any good?
% improvement ?
Worth the cash?
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Cat5 in the Hat




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mungo wrote:
Car I have everything except a coach and a power meter.

Heart rate and bike fit seams to have me still improving slowly.
A coach is something I wonder about?

Any good?
% improvement ?
Worth the cash?


I found it good VFM, if you can put value on being coached. My cycling improved, more so once I had a PM, although I had trained with power before.
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