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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Maffetone Reply with quote

Does anyone else use the Phil Maffetone method or used it in the past?

I've been dabbling with it for runs, but the amount of hills round my way mean my average HR is above where he suggests. It's always around 144, higher if I up the pace.

This morning, it all seemed to work. Figured I needed to keep my pace lower. Usually average 8.5minute miles no matter I what I do. This morning, conscious effort to go slower. Averaged 9 minute miles, average HR 139. That's a good result for me!

Now need to try and focus on keeping this going for at least a month and see how it goes.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do what I call 'Maffetone runs' but in effect they are just the easier Z2 runs I do, as part of my training. I don't use the Maffetone approach to my whole training plan/program, purely because by definition this appraoch requires a lot of training hours/volume to elicit gains from lower intensity training. Most of us don't have that time.

Early proponents of his approach were Mark Allen and later-on Mike Pigg; but these guys were training over 30 hours a week, not 10 say, like an average AGer. If you want the required 'stimulus' from lower (more realistic) volumes, then you need to mix intensities more, and do higher intensity work regularly.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whilst the concept works - those two examples quoted above, Mark Allen and Mike Pigg, already had thousands of training hours under their belt and massive engines...
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triathlon is one sport so you can do intensity in some disciplines and drop from others. My philosophy is that for IM in particular, the run is good to do mainly Low HR work. Speed is rarely an issue in IM, strength and form under fatigue is. If you can run 8min miles then that's a 3:30 marathon and for most pretty good, so why risk long recovery times to learn to run at 6min / miles for instance. Get off road and run in the hills but try to keep it aerobic. Bike and swim sessions are different and where I'd up intensity. Swim there is not much point to hit out slow miles as you dont get the stimulus you need. You need to build swim related fitness and strength by going harder which also has the added bonus that its conditioning your aerobic system. Bike then Id be inclined to do more FTP VO2 max work in the week and the longer rides would include tempo/half ironman pace work, with the exemption for some weeks or athletes where 5 or 6 hours + in "Zone 2" would be beneficial.
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Roscoemck




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good insights, cheers guys
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Tin Pot




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
Good insights, cheers guys


I started out using the maffetone method, although it's based on arbitrary numbers it did teach me to run easy and improve my technique without injury - personally I think it's been superceded by greater understanding of aerobic training.

My current opinion is that regular aerobic running is going to improve me more than inconsistent high intensity running.
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moonmonkey02




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.


Yes you gotta love the way a guy takes a pretty standard method of training and puts a spin on it and owns it. Running easy everyday is nothing new really and building up the mileage of the long run isn't exactly rocket science. Still hes got it all in one place and its worth looking at.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.

Just had a look at a couple of bits. Whether or not it works, its not my approach. I like the speedwork and I think it has big benefits in making the tempo and threshold stuff seem much easier.

Listening to people like Lionel Sanders on podcasts shows this is a valid approach, even at the top level. He was saying a few weeks ago on Oxygen Addict that he will spend the entire winter and spring doing everything at or above threshold, in all disciplines. I think his analogy was that you first need to build a bigger engine before finally bolting on a larger fuel tank right at the end (i.e. get faster first in order to get faster for longer).

Iron War which I'm reading has also shown the LSD Maffetone approach adopted by Mark Allen can be as productive as the thrash yourself Dave Scott method. And some of the sport science stuff in that book reinforces the fact that working well above your comfort level forces muscular adaptions with respect to form and biomechanical efficiency.

But the key thing for me is enjoyment. I don't find slow running particularly fun. Ergo, if that's what I did I'd likely just end up bored and sack it all off. I find the competitive aspect of track and tempo sessions fun. So I do them with regularity. Ultimately I might not be reaching my full potential by adopting my heavy speedwork approach, but I'm in this for enjoyment at the end of the day, so I'll do what I find most fun.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.

Just had a look at a couple of bits. Whether or not it works, its not my approach. I like the speedwork and I think it has big benefits in making the tempo and threshold stuff seem much easier.

Listening to people like Lionel Sanders on podcasts shows this is a valid approach, even at the top level. He was saying a few weeks ago on Oxygen Addict that he will spend the entire winter and spring doing everything at or above threshold, in all disciplines. I think his analogy was that you first need to build a bigger engine before finally bolting on a larger fuel tank right at the end (i.e. get faster first in order to get faster for longer).

Iron War which I'm reading has also shown the LSD Maffetone approach adopted by Mark Allen can be as productive as the thrash yourself Dave Scott method. And some of the sport science stuff in that book reinforces the fact that working well above your comfort level forces muscular adaptions with respect to form and biomechanical efficiency.

But the key thing for me is enjoyment. I don't find slow running particularly fun. Ergo, if that's what I did I'd likely just end up bored and sack it all off. I find the competitive aspect of track and tempo sessions fun. So I do them with regularity. Ultimately I might not be reaching my full potential by adopting my heavy speedwork approach, but I'm in this for enjoyment at the end of the day, so I'll do what I find most fun.


I very much doubt Lionel Sanders is doing all his training at or above threshold, unless hes barely staying active in winter but if he really is then it sounds like a quick route to burnout, no matter who you are. You simply cannot go hard in every session.
oh and yes the whole point is that its meant to be fun so do what you enjoy but if you want to maximise your gains then you must spend time in all energy systems across all 3 sports.
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moonmonkey02




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.


Yes you gotta love the way a guy takes a pretty standard method of training and puts a spin on it and owns it. Running easy everyday is nothing new really and building up the mileage of the long run isn't exactly rocket science. Still hes got it all in one place and its worth looking at.


running 6 days a week seemed mad at first but i have to say having been doing it for about 5 months now and it seems great. i can honestly say that my endurance has improved no end compared to previous years training.

it'll be interesting to see what gains i can make during a race compared to previous years efforts.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonmonkey02 wrote:
hammerer wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.


Yes you gotta love the way a guy takes a pretty standard method of training and puts a spin on it and owns it. Running easy everyday is nothing new really and building up the mileage of the long run isn't exactly rocket science. Still hes got it all in one place and its worth looking at.


running 6 days a week seemed mad at first but i have to say having been doing it for about 5 months now and it seems great. i can honestly say that my endurance has improved no end compared to previous years training.

it'll be interesting to see what gains i can make during a race compared to previous years efforts.


yep its a great way to build resilience and efficiency also. Its very hard to convince people who think its madness and potential for injury running everyday/most days and that running for 15 minutes is pointless but consistency is key to improvement. Running short and therefore fresher means you keep good form and don't risk ending up plodding through a session with poor form just to get the miles in. You just need to make sure that you start to add some faster stuff in once or twice a week so that you don't stagnate and stress the body in other ways. By continuing to run everything "slow" you just end up learning to run slow.
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonmonkey02 wrote:
hammerer wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.


Yes you gotta love the way a guy takes a pretty standard method of training and puts a spin on it and owns it. Running easy everyday is nothing new really and building up the mileage of the long run isn't exactly rocket science. Still hes got it all in one place and its worth looking at.


running 6 days a week seemed mad at first but i have to say having been doing it for about 5 months now and it seems great. i can honestly say that my endurance has improved no end compared to previous years training.

it'll be interesting to see what gains i can make during a race compared to previous years efforts.



Although maybe doing it at a lower pace, what effect is 6 days going to have on the body? I really don't think my joints would thank me for it with the cycling/swimming on top.
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Mungo




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were all different........

I NEVER run more frequently than every other day.

Seams to be working injury and performance wise.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
hammerer wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.


Yes you gotta love the way a guy takes a pretty standard method of training and puts a spin on it and owns it. Running easy everyday is nothing new really and building up the mileage of the long run isn't exactly rocket science. Still hes got it all in one place and its worth looking at.


running 6 days a week seemed mad at first but i have to say having been doing it for about 5 months now and it seems great. i can honestly say that my endurance has improved no end compared to previous years training.

it'll be interesting to see what gains i can make during a race compared to previous years efforts.



Although maybe doing it at a lower pace, what effect is 6 days going to have on the body? I really don't think my joints would thank me for it with the cycling/swimming on top.


the fact is that you are running the same time/mileage as normal. You are just over 6 days instead of 3. so if you do 25 miles now in 3 runs, do it over 6! with some of those runs as low as 2 or 3 miles.
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