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stenard




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.

Just had a look at a couple of bits. Whether or not it works, its not my approach. I like the speedwork and I think it has big benefits in making the tempo and threshold stuff seem much easier.

Listening to people like Lionel Sanders on podcasts shows this is a valid approach, even at the top level. He was saying a few weeks ago on Oxygen Addict that he will spend the entire winter and spring doing everything at or above threshold, in all disciplines. I think his analogy was that you first need to build a bigger engine before finally bolting on a larger fuel tank right at the end (i.e. get faster first in order to get faster for longer).

Iron War which I'm reading has also shown the LSD Maffetone approach adopted by Mark Allen can be as productive as the thrash yourself Dave Scott method. And some of the sport science stuff in that book reinforces the fact that working well above your comfort level forces muscular adaptions with respect to form and biomechanical efficiency.

But the key thing for me is enjoyment. I don't find slow running particularly fun. Ergo, if that's what I did I'd likely just end up bored and sack it all off. I find the competitive aspect of track and tempo sessions fun. So I do them with regularity. Ultimately I might not be reaching my full potential by adopting my heavy speedwork approach, but I'm in this for enjoyment at the end of the day, so I'll do what I find most fun.


I very much doubt Lionel Sanders is doing all his training at or above threshold, unless hes barely staying active in winter but if he really is then it sounds like a quick route to burnout, no matter who you are. You simply cannot go hard in every session.
oh and yes the whole point is that its meant to be fun so do what you enjoy but if you want to maximise your gains then you must spend time in all energy systems across all 3 sports.


I just listened back to the relevant section of the podcast. "Everything" was an overstatement, but he does a lot. A lot more than effectively nothing which was what the BarryP approach seemed to be suggesting.

He definitely used the phrase "get fast to go long, fast".
As well as in respect of his winter training saying he prioritises threshold work and that "I wont do any interval threshold work slower than my target race pace". Along with, "At the start that means you can't do much volume".

Finally, he concluded saying, "I tested the theory that spending time training at race pace makes race pace easier, and the answer was no. Training significantly faster, and significantly slower, than race pace makes race pace easier".
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moonmonkey02




Joined: 30 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Roscoemck wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
hammerer wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.


Yes you gotta love the way a guy takes a pretty standard method of training and puts a spin on it and owns it. Running easy everyday is nothing new really and building up the mileage of the long run isn't exactly rocket science. Still hes got it all in one place and its worth looking at.


running 6 days a week seemed mad at first but i have to say having been doing it for about 5 months now and it seems great. i can honestly say that my endurance has improved no end compared to previous years training.

it'll be interesting to see what gains i can make during a race compared to previous years efforts.



Although maybe doing it at a lower pace, what effect is 6 days going to have on the body? I really don't think my joints would thank me for it with the cycling/swimming on top.


the fact is that you are running the same time/mileage as normal. You are just over 6 days instead of 3. so if you do 25 miles now in 3 runs, do it over 6! with some of those runs as low as 2 or 3 miles.


Exactly this. Plus I started this about 9 months out from my planned IM.
To begin with it the short runs were 10 mins "long".
I've found in previous years I would run 3 x week and in particular the long slow run would damage me: no problem doing it just the recovery, or lack of, was insufficient.
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Roscoemck




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can get my head around the MAF method of keeping the HR low, so having to go slower. This means the distance of your runs doesn't change.

Surely breaking the weekly distance down over 6 days will result in issues trying to do a longer run or does the daily distance gradually increase??
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
I can get my head around the MAF method of keeping the HR low, so having to go slower. This means the distance of your runs doesn't change.

Surely breaking the weekly distance down over 6 days will result in issues trying to do a longer run or does the daily distance gradually increase??


You still need to be progressive in the build. Im not 100% sure of the BarryP method, but say you did a 15 mile run and two * 5mile ruins for your 25miles. Now your long run will only be 7 or 8, maybe 10 but this then increases by the "10% rule" as usual, eventually you'll be back with a decent long run but with running 6 days a week still! you can then look to increase the weekday runs as well or add intensity to one of them. After the winter months you may turn one of the mid distance runs into a fartlek or intervals session, or maybe a threshold / tempo run also if you can handle it. The trick in the early BASE phase or a running everyday plan is to run like you know you need to run again tomorrow.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
hammerer wrote:
stenard wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
i've been using BarryP (look it up on slowtwitch) to good effect this year.

well worth a look.

Just had a look at a couple of bits. Whether or not it works, its not my approach. I like the speedwork and I think it has big benefits in making the tempo and threshold stuff seem much easier.

Listening to people like Lionel Sanders on podcasts shows this is a valid approach, even at the top level. He was saying a few weeks ago on Oxygen Addict that he will spend the entire winter and spring doing everything at or above threshold, in all disciplines. I think his analogy was that you first need to build a bigger engine before finally bolting on a larger fuel tank right at the end (i.e. get faster first in order to get faster for longer).

Iron War which I'm reading has also shown the LSD Maffetone approach adopted by Mark Allen can be as productive as the thrash yourself Dave Scott method. And some of the sport science stuff in that book reinforces the fact that working well above your comfort level forces muscular adaptions with respect to form and biomechanical efficiency.

But the key thing for me is enjoyment. I don't find slow running particularly fun. Ergo, if that's what I did I'd likely just end up bored and sack it all off. I find the competitive aspect of track and tempo sessions fun. So I do them with regularity. Ultimately I might not be reaching my full potential by adopting my heavy speedwork approach, but I'm in this for enjoyment at the end of the day, so I'll do what I find most fun.


I very much doubt Lionel Sanders is doing all his training at or above threshold, unless hes barely staying active in winter but if he really is then it sounds like a quick route to burnout, no matter who you are. You simply cannot go hard in every session.
oh and yes the whole point is that its meant to be fun so do what you enjoy but if you want to maximise your gains then you must spend time in all energy systems across all 3 sports.


I just listened back to the relevant section of the podcast. "Everything" was an overstatement, but he does a lot. A lot more than effectively nothing which was what the BarryP approach seemed to be suggesting.

He definitely used the phrase "get fast to go long, fast".
As well as in respect of his winter training saying he prioritises threshold work and that "I wont do any interval threshold work slower than my target race pace". Along with, "At the start that means you can't do much volume".

Finally, he concluded saying, "I tested the theory that spending time training at race pace makes race pace easier, and the answer was no. Training significantly faster, and significantly slower, than race pace makes race pace easier".


There is definitely good theory behind going hard in winter. In winter months bike hard on the turbo 2 or even 3 days a week. Its a great way to up FTP and who wants to go slow and steady in winter! If you can/want swap one out for a long ride but 3 * 1hr or so sufferfests are enough to make good gains. Swim you know my views there. I am not one for "endurance" effort swims and feel they should always have elements of big effort in for other reasons. The run I just think is different. its cold, risk of injury with not properly warming up, BUT I also think XC races are a great addition to a winter schedule so for me its still not an all or nothing approach. for weaker runners this type of plan of running consistently and shorter is a great way to build up mileage safely and steadily though. horses for courses!
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moonmonkey02




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Roscoemck wrote:
I can get my head around the MAF method of keeping the HR low, so having to go slower. This means the distance of your runs doesn't change.

Surely breaking the weekly distance down over 6 days will result in issues trying to do a longer run or does the daily distance gradually increase??


You still need to be progressive in the build. Im not 100% sure of the BarryP method, but say you did a 15 mile run and two * 5mile ruins for your 25miles. Now your long run will only be 7 or 8, maybe 10 but this then increases by the "10% rule" as usual, eventually you'll be back with a decent long run but with running 6 days a week still! you can then look to increase the weekday runs as well or add intensity to one of them. After the winter months you may turn one of the mid distance runs into a fartlek or intervals session, or maybe a threshold / tempo run also if you can handle it. The trick in the early BASE phase or a running everyday plan is to run like you know you need to run again tomorrow.


In the base phase your runs are 123.
For example 3 runs x 10 mins, 2 runs x 20 mins, 1 run x 30 mins, so long run is 3 x the short run.
The 3 runs are recovery, 2 runs easy, and 1 run slow (for pacing use McMillan pace calculator). Put simply your "fastest" run in this phase is an easy pace.

Progression occurs by increasing the volume week-on-week. To give you an example my 3 x short runs were 10 minutes each to start with: 5 months down the line these are now approaching 30 minutes each, with 2 x 1 hour runs and the long run being 90 mins. i have also increased the pace but only slightly. I'm just reaching the end of the base phase.

If you want to do lots of tempo/threshold etc runs this is not the plan for you.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:

There is definitely good theory behind going hard in winter. In winter months bike hard on the turbo 2 or even 3 days a week. Its a great way to up FTP and who wants to go slow and steady in winter! If you can/want swap one out for a long ride but 3 * 1hr or so sufferfests are enough to make good gains. Swim you know my views there. I am not one for "endurance" effort swims and feel they should always have elements of big effort in for other reasons. The run I just think is different. its cold, risk of injury with not properly warming up, BUT I also think XC races are a great addition to a winter schedule so for me its still not an all or nothing approach. for weaker runners this type of plan of running consistently and shorter is a great way to build up mileage safely and steadily though. horses for courses!

He definitely did say what you have talked about for biking. He just applied it equally to running too.
You make a good point about weather conditions tho. I guess as a pro, he can probably "chase the sun", and locate himself in a nicer part of the world for "winter" training! Relax
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Gus




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting that 'both' sides of the argument have equally vociferous proponents with evidence to prove it. It's clear to me it's each to their own.

Maffetone (or was it Fink?) talked about a 'pyramid' - the base is your endurance base, the height is your speed. The conjecture is that the wider your base, the higher the pyramid can be (and therefore your overall speed).

I followed Maffetone 10 years ago to do the Norseman, and it pretty much worked. I'm also doing it again after a 2yr lay-off to get back in HIM shape.

First best advice - get your LT measured clinically. If you're basing your whole training program on something so fundamental, then start off right. The rule-of-thumb formulae (at least for me) were quite far off the truth so why waste the whole training energy working off a wrong number?

The hardest part is the early stage - to the OP, you should always keep HR <=LT. This means yes, you WILL probably walk up the hills/inclines. It's at this stage you say to yourself 'this is a complete waste of time' and this is where most people give up. But, stick with it. You'll find after a few weeks of LSD (no, not that LSD) you will find you'll be walking less and less.

Being time-limited like most people, my base-building, consisting of lots of LSD's (usually weekend), only lasts for several weeks then I start introducing mid-week tempo/intervals in Z4, but still keeping weekend LSD at <LT. After a few months of this, you'll find your pace on your LSD increasing significantly whilst still keeping <LT.

The one, single, thing I liked about Maffetone was the level of intensity is so gentle, it makes motivating yourself to go out for a run so much easier. It doesn't HURT so much, so it's easier to persuade yourself to get out there.
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Roscoemck




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very interesting stuff guys.

Went for a 5 mile run this morning after a steady session on the turbo. Felt good, 8.38 minute mile average, HR average was 140 which is good for me.
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TransitionTed




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also as you get older, smashing yourself on every session is counterproductive. I find now I'm approaching the 50ish age group I need to really modulate my efforts. I guess I'm saying one size doesn't fit all when it regards training
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Roscoemck




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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TransitionTed wrote:
Also as you get older, smashing yourself on every session is counterproductive. I find now I'm approaching the 50ish age group I need to really modulate my efforts. I guess I'm saying one size doesn't fit all when it regards training


Yep, just turned 49 and realising I need to reign it in a bit.
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gingerbongo




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, all this reinforces is how many ways there are to skin the poor old proverbial cat! It will also depend on whether you are focussing on single or multi sport.

I, for example, have drifted away from tri for the time being and am concentrating on running. I've been playing with the low and slow method and it seems to be working. I'm never injured now, whereas my calves would be in pieces after a speed session, and the key thing is i'm enjoying it. Lots of people would get bored at plodding around at 4:45/km pace, but once i get over the first week or so i find my rhythm. The science behind the approach i'm following suggests it's overall weekly (and for your build/peak phase up until your target race) training load that counts, not any one session. So that can be 50km a week with lots of intensity or at a much higher average pace, or 150km per week all nice and easy.

I'm going into London with a friend who is running a much more 'traditional' approach - speedwork, tempo etc etc. We're pretty similar runners with the same target, so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out (obviously many other factors on race day that could have an impact).

I'm planning on a 150km/week average for the 8 weeks leading into the marathon, peaking at around 180km (maybe more if things are going well) but all at about 4:40/45 pace. This means running twice a day most days, but i always take Saturdays off and don't run until Sunday evening so i essentially get a 48 hour rest. This methodology also states that you don't need long runs, so unless i'm struggling to hit the mileage in any given week i don't plan on going much over 25km or so. The only 'sessions' are a couple of progressive runs finishing with a km or so at TMP under heat stress i.e. layered up to the max.
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fruit thief




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a fan of the Maffetone approach & the one season I actually followed something close to it, set PBs in half marathon, marathon, middle distance tri.

A similar run-specific approach is Hadd's:

http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

If I understand right, his key message is that to increase your performance, you basically need to increase your lactate threshold. And that this is something which happens in the muscles, not the cardiovascular system. unning at something like 50bpm below HR max encourages the adaptations in muscular efficiency which raise lactate threshold: more mitochondria, more capillaries, upregulated enzyme systems. That's probably a gross oversimplifcation I know, but isn't this the basic principle of Maffetone's method too?

He gives a really good case study towards the end of the pdf above. Admittedly a genetically gifted athlete, but untrained he was running 3 miles in 18 minutes and finding it "very hard"- suggesting that lactate was accumulating. After 12 weeks of 40-60 miles per week of running where HR was mostly 60% and never went above 70%, he was running 10 miles in 58 minutes in training and finding it "very easy - as if I could go round again" - suggesting that these adaptations had occurred. And then he ran a half marathon in 71 minutes (!) which is 5m30 pace despite not having trained at that pace at all.
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Roscoemck




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the concept behind this fascinating.

Given that I have previously torn my right calf through overdoing it, I'm going to stick to the MAF method and see how that goes.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i sense a dichotomy developing...

...what is so wrong with selecting appropriate amounts of both...there's certainly a lot to be gained from appropriate training in a number of zones...
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