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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13920
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
No Ejc, we are where we are because our powers that be got complacent, failing to see the wood from the trees. It's a natural thing to happen, and I have made this error myself.

The harsh reality is that globally (since the fall of the Soviet Union) people have demanded a better life. We are just at the back end of that process, and one which was totally foreseeable if you are able to stand back from the forest and just look at the trees. But when you are in the middle of the forest trying to survive and maintain it, you can miss what is happening around and within. It's an age old lesson. One which as I say I have failed myself in the past.

Now we have Tony Blair pointing the obvious out that the case for Scottish independence is now stronger (this weeks Economist disagrees though does say that it is more likely). So it is entirely possible that within a couple of short years there will be no Great Britain, far less a west centric EU.

Wow what a legacy. We need wiser politicians. Hopefully our existing powers that be can rise to the challenge and find that wisdom. Politics isn't a game to stoke egos, it's a place (or should be a place) where wisdom rules.


sometimes your faux humility is mildly nauseating...but then you pile in with the metaphors and i have to chuckle instead...

to my knowledge, there is no example of a single nation or group of nations who have been able to borrow their way out of trouble....the only reason why any EU nation is still afloat at all is because of the artificially low interest rates...when they rise again, as they almost certainly will, we are in for one hell of a crash.

I note that you are blaming the "people" and their post soviet demands...our problems stem from way before then..
ejc you are joining GrahamO with insults!

Look Ejc who said anything about borrowing? Not me. Simple economics. And who said anything about blame? Again not me. I was simply observing, based on mistakes that I have made in my own life.


so your plan is not borrowing against the future? How come?
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2251

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
No Ejc, we are where we are because our powers that be got complacent, failing to see the wood from the trees. It's a natural thing to happen, and I have made this error myself.

The harsh reality is that globally (since the fall of the Soviet Union) people have demanded a better life. We are just at the back end of that process, and one which was totally foreseeable if you are able to stand back from the forest and just look at the trees. But when you are in the middle of the forest trying to survive and maintain it, you can miss what is happening around and within. It's an age old lesson. One which as I say I have failed myself in the past.

Now we have Tony Blair pointing the obvious out that the case for Scottish independence is now stronger (this weeks Economist disagrees though does say that it is more likely). So it is entirely possible that within a couple of short years there will be no Great Britain, far less a west centric EU.

Wow what a legacy. We need wiser politicians. Hopefully our existing powers that be can rise to the challenge and find that wisdom. Politics isn't a game to stoke egos, it's a place (or should be a place) where wisdom rules.


sometimes your faux humility is mildly nauseating...but then you pile in with the metaphors and i have to chuckle instead...

to my knowledge, there is no example of a single nation or group of nations who have been able to borrow their way out of trouble....the only reason why any EU nation is still afloat at all is because of the artificially low interest rates...when they rise again, as they almost certainly will, we are in for one hell of a crash.

I note that you are blaming the "people" and their post soviet demands...our problems stem from way before then..
ejc you are joining GrahamO with insults!

Look Ejc who said anything about borrowing? Not me. Simple economics. And who said anything about blame? Again not me. I was simply observing, based on mistakes that I have made in my own life.


so your plan is not borrowing against the future? How come?
ejc, I have already explained that above. Let me try again.

Doing what all governments do, printing money. Carefully, very carefully. You may know it as quantative easing, or the term that is become more widely discussed in economics circles is helicopter money. But it's all the same thing. Brand spanking new money, created out of thin air by simple bookkeeping entries.

It is what governments globally do to establish their money supply in the first place (banking aside obviously) and what has happened for years now to help resolve crises. But it must be used very carefully.

Government accounts don't work the same way your budget or your employers budget does Ejc, as governments can and do print money, though you don't need printing presses anymore. Do it too much too often and your country is right down the pan economically though with hyperinflation etc. But for one off solutions to problems it can be effective.

Borrowing does not enter the equation.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13920
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
No Ejc, we are where we are because our powers that be got complacent, failing to see the wood from the trees. It's a natural thing to happen, and I have made this error myself.

The harsh reality is that globally (since the fall of the Soviet Union) people have demanded a better life. We are just at the back end of that process, and one which was totally foreseeable if you are able to stand back from the forest and just look at the trees. But when you are in the middle of the forest trying to survive and maintain it, you can miss what is happening around and within. It's an age old lesson. One which as I say I have failed myself in the past.

Now we have Tony Blair pointing the obvious out that the case for Scottish independence is now stronger (this weeks Economist disagrees though does say that it is more likely). So it is entirely possible that within a couple of short years there will be no Great Britain, far less a west centric EU.

Wow what a legacy. We need wiser politicians. Hopefully our existing powers that be can rise to the challenge and find that wisdom. Politics isn't a game to stoke egos, it's a place (or should be a place) where wisdom rules.


sometimes your faux humility is mildly nauseating...but then you pile in with the metaphors and i have to chuckle instead...

to my knowledge, there is no example of a single nation or group of nations who have been able to borrow their way out of trouble....the only reason why any EU nation is still afloat at all is because of the artificially low interest rates...when they rise again, as they almost certainly will, we are in for one hell of a crash.

I note that you are blaming the "people" and their post soviet demands...our problems stem from way before then..
ejc you are joining GrahamO with insults!

Look Ejc who said anything about borrowing? Not me. Simple economics. And who said anything about blame? Again not me. I was simply observing, based on mistakes that I have made in my own life.


so your plan is not borrowing against the future? How come?
ejc, I have already explained that above. Let me try again.

Doing what all governments do, printing money. Carefully, very carefully. You may know it as quantative easing, or the term that is become more widely discussed in economics circles is helicopter money. But it's all the same thing. Brand spanking new money, created out of thin air by simple bookkeeping entries.

It is what governments globally do to establish their money supply in the first place (banking aside obviously) and what has happened for years now to help resolve crises. But it must be used very carefully.

Government accounts don't work the same way your budget or your employers budget does Ejc, as governments can and do print money, though you don't need printing presses anymore. Do it too much too often and your country is right down the pan economically though with hyperinflation etc. But for one off solutions to problems it can be effective.

Borrowing does not enter the equation.


and what exactly do you do with this money that is created???
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2251

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
No Ejc, we are where we are because our powers that be got complacent, failing to see the wood from the trees. It's a natural thing to happen, and I have made this error myself.

The harsh reality is that globally (since the fall of the Soviet Union) people have demanded a better life. We are just at the back end of that process, and one which was totally foreseeable if you are able to stand back from the forest and just look at the trees. But when you are in the middle of the forest trying to survive and maintain it, you can miss what is happening around and within. It's an age old lesson. One which as I say I have failed myself in the past.

Now we have Tony Blair pointing the obvious out that the case for Scottish independence is now stronger (this weeks Economist disagrees though does say that it is more likely). So it is entirely possible that within a couple of short years there will be no Great Britain, far less a west centric EU.

Wow what a legacy. We need wiser politicians. Hopefully our existing powers that be can rise to the challenge and find that wisdom. Politics isn't a game to stoke egos, it's a place (or should be a place) where wisdom rules.


sometimes your faux humility is mildly nauseating...but then you pile in with the metaphors and i have to chuckle instead...

to my knowledge, there is no example of a single nation or group of nations who have been able to borrow their way out of trouble....the only reason why any EU nation is still afloat at all is because of the artificially low interest rates...when they rise again, as they almost certainly will, we are in for one hell of a crash.

I note that you are blaming the "people" and their post soviet demands...our problems stem from way before then..
ejc you are joining GrahamO with insults!

Look Ejc who said anything about borrowing? Not me. Simple economics. And who said anything about blame? Again not me. I was simply observing, based on mistakes that I have made in my own life.


so your plan is not borrowing against the future? How come?
ejc, I have already explained that above. Let me try again.

Doing what all governments do, printing money. Carefully, very carefully. You may know it as quantative easing, or the term that is become more widely discussed in economics circles is helicopter money. But it's all the same thing. Brand spanking new money, created out of thin air by simple bookkeeping entries.

It is what governments globally do to establish their money supply in the first place (banking aside obviously) and what has happened for years now to help resolve crises. But it must be used very carefully.

Government accounts don't work the same way your budget or your employers budget does Ejc, as governments can and do print money, though you don't need printing presses anymore. Do it too much too often and your country is right down the pan economically though with hyperinflation etc. But for one off solutions to problems it can be effective.

Borrowing does not enter the equation.


and what exactly do you do with this money that is created???
well so far the British government has used it to buy bonds and help save the banking system (along with tighter regulation).

It was an off the cuff suggestion by me above that we could do similar, as a one of, to pay our EU exit charge. Assuming that a risk appraisal supported it.

Which Ejc for someone who wants to stay in the EU is quite a helping hand to those like you who want out at any cost.

More generally governments do it to help finance and run their countries, and sometimes get too aggressive with it when the end result is hyperinflation and destroyed economies and life's. This is how governments get their money in the first place. Tax, borrowing etc comes after you have established your base money supply. Which you do by bookkeeping money out of thin air. In days gone by you would then print the stuff.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2251

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is also being discussed in economics circles as a means to revive the global economy, under the term "helicopter money" and also to help provide universal incomes to all in some countries when that has been discussed (India and Switzerland I think off hand).
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13920
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
No Ejc, we are where we are because our powers that be got complacent, failing to see the wood from the trees. It's a natural thing to happen, and I have made this error myself.

The harsh reality is that globally (since the fall of the Soviet Union) people have demanded a better life. We are just at the back end of that process, and one which was totally foreseeable if you are able to stand back from the forest and just look at the trees. But when you are in the middle of the forest trying to survive and maintain it, you can miss what is happening around and within. It's an age old lesson. One which as I say I have failed myself in the past.

Now we have Tony Blair pointing the obvious out that the case for Scottish independence is now stronger (this weeks Economist disagrees though does say that it is more likely). So it is entirely possible that within a couple of short years there will be no Great Britain, far less a west centric EU.

Wow what a legacy. We need wiser politicians. Hopefully our existing powers that be can rise to the challenge and find that wisdom. Politics isn't a game to stoke egos, it's a place (or should be a place) where wisdom rules.


sometimes your faux humility is mildly nauseating...but then you pile in with the metaphors and i have to chuckle instead...

to my knowledge, there is no example of a single nation or group of nations who have been able to borrow their way out of trouble....the only reason why any EU nation is still afloat at all is because of the artificially low interest rates...when they rise again, as they almost certainly will, we are in for one hell of a crash.

I note that you are blaming the "people" and their post soviet demands...our problems stem from way before then..
ejc you are joining GrahamO with insults!

Look Ejc who said anything about borrowing? Not me. Simple economics. And who said anything about blame? Again not me. I was simply observing, based on mistakes that I have made in my own life.


so your plan is not borrowing against the future? How come?
ejc, I have already explained that above. Let me try again.

Doing what all governments do, printing money. Carefully, very carefully. You may know it as quantative easing, or the term that is become more widely discussed in economics circles is helicopter money. But it's all the same thing. Brand spanking new money, created out of thin air by simple bookkeeping entries.

It is what governments globally do to establish their money supply in the first place (banking aside obviously) and what has happened for years now to help resolve crises. But it must be used very carefully.

Government accounts don't work the same way your budget or your employers budget does Ejc, as governments can and do print money, though you don't need printing presses anymore. Do it too much too often and your country is right down the pan economically though with hyperinflation etc. But for one off solutions to problems it can be effective.

Borrowing does not enter the equation.


and what exactly do you do with this money that is created???
well so far the British government has used it to buy bonds and help save the banking system (along with tighter regulation).

It was an off the cuff suggestion by me above that we could do similar, as a one of, to pay our EU exit charge. Assuming that a risk appraisal supported it.

Which Ejc for someone who wants to stay in the EU is quite a helping hand to those like you who want out at any cost.

More generally governments do it to help finance and run their countries, and sometimes get too aggressive with it when the end result is hyperinflation and destroyed economies and life's. This is how governments get their money in the first place. Tax, borrowing etc comes after you have established your base money supply. Which you do by bookkeeping money out of thin air. In days gone by you would then print the stuff.


and how do you do that without increasing national debt?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13920
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
It is also being discussed in economics circles as a means to revive the global economy, under the term "helicopter money" and also to help provide universal incomes to all in some countries when that has been discussed (India and Switzerland I think off hand).


yes, the Economist describes it thus:

quantitative easing (or QE), adding lots of public debt to the private kind it has already been buying.
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2251

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ejc

If I lend you a fiver, you have borrowed a fiver, and are in debt to me for a fiver.

If you have your own printing press you could simply print yourself a fiver. You are not owe it to anyone as you haven't borrowed it.

This is the one thing that governments (and banks to a degree) can do that you, me and corporations, can't.

National debt doesn't increase as you are not owe the fiver to anyone.

In my example you would actually be paying off a debt, eliminating it at a stroke. While paying it in full.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13920
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:


Which Ejc for someone who wants to stay in the EU is quite a helping hand to those like you who want out at any cost.

.


just as a reminder, i only want out of the EU because of the stupifyingly arrogant, ignorant, selfish, wasteful and incompetent way in which the EU operates...
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2251

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
It is also being discussed in economics circles as a means to revive the global economy, under the term "helicopter money" and also to help provide universal incomes to all in some countries when that has been discussed (India and Switzerland I think off hand).


yes, the Economist describes it thus:

quantitative easing (or QE), adding lots of public debt to the private kind it has already been buying.
technically, yes. But we are talking about one branch of the government owing another branch of the government money. It's semantics, as qe is more politically acceptable than printing money or helicopter money. But in essence it is the same thing.

Technically you are however correct Ejc, though in any practical terms it's a bit like you Ejc lending you Ejc, money. Yes you have borrowed money from yourself and are technically owe it to yourself.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13920
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Ejc

If I lend you a fiver, you have borrowed a fiver, and are in debt to me for a fiver.

If you have your own printing press you could simply print yourself a fiver. You are not owe it to anyone as you haven't borrowed it.

This is the one thing that governments (and banks to a degree) can do that you, me and corporations, can't.

National debt doesn't increase as you are not owe the fiver to anyone.

In my example you would actually be paying off a debt, eliminating it at a stroke. While paying it in full.


oh dear...

do you really read the economist???
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SloggingScotsman




Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2251

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Ejc

If I lend you a fiver, you have borrowed a fiver, and are in debt to me for a fiver.

If you have your own printing press you could simply print yourself a fiver. You are not owe it to anyone as you haven't borrowed it.

This is the one thing that governments (and banks to a degree) can do that you, me and corporations, can't.

National debt doesn't increase as you are not owe the fiver to anyone.

In my example you would actually be paying off a debt, eliminating it at a stroke. While paying it in full.

oh dear...

do you really read the economist???
Yes, thoroughly. Also happen to have an economics degree.
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KingstonGraham




Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 7559

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Ejc

If I lend you a fiver, you have borrowed a fiver, and are in debt to me for a fiver.

If you have your own printing press you could simply print yourself a fiver. You are not owe it to anyone as you haven't borrowed it.

This is the one thing that governments (and banks to a degree) can do that you, me and corporations, can't.

National debt doesn't increase as you are not owe the fiver to anyone.

In my example you would actually be paying off a debt, eliminating it at a stroke. While paying it in full.

oh dear...

do you really read the economist???
Yes, thoroughly. Also happen to have an economics degree.


Have you read a fiver?
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
It is also being discussed in economics circles as a means to revive the global economy, under the term "helicopter money" and also to help provide universal incomes to all in some countries when that has been discussed (India and Switzerland I think off hand).


yes, the Economist describes it thus:

quantitative easing (or QE), adding lots of public debt to the private kind it has already been buying.
technically, yes. But we are talking about one branch of the government owing another branch of the government money. It's semantics, as qe is more politically acceptable than printing money or helicopter money. But in essence it is the same thing.

Technically you are however correct Ejc, though in any practical terms it's a bit like you Ejc lending you Ejc, money. Yes you have borrowed money from yourself and are technically owe it to yourself.


I love the way you talk down to people in your posts Sloggers, it makes you sound as though you know what you are saying...however...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 13920
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
Ejc

If I lend you a fiver, you have borrowed a fiver, and are in debt to me for a fiver.

If you have your own printing press you could simply print yourself a fiver. You are not owe it to anyone as you haven't borrowed it.

This is the one thing that governments (and banks to a degree) can do that you, me and corporations, can't.

National debt doesn't increase as you are not owe the fiver to anyone.

In my example you would actually be paying off a debt, eliminating it at a stroke. While paying it in full.

oh dear...

do you really read the economist???
Yes, thoroughly. Also happen to have an economics degree.


So, with your economics degree, you are unable to see without prompting that QE causes debt which is borrowing from the future...and with my maths O-level, I can??? I am not sure what exactly that says about either of our qualifications...
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