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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1984

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lighter week last week, as planned with The Big Half on Sunday. I'd been hitting over 50 miles per week over the previous month.

I had some concerning pain midweek and a massage Friday (which was pretty much a necessity to be even able to try and run) was far from ideal in terms of leaving me pretty sore. And then you add the wind!

Somehow, I managed to pb by 22s, going 1:19:35. Without doubt, it's the shoes. The vaporfly hype is real. Honestly. They actually feel like cheating in some regards. Although I'd say in the finishing area around the time I passed through, it was genuinely the case that large swathes of the field are now wearing them.
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Lighter week last week, as planned with The Big Half on Sunday. I'd been hitting over 50 miles per week over the previous month.

I had some concerning pain midweek and a massage Friday (which was pretty much a necessity to be even able to try and run) was far from ideal in terms of leaving me pretty sore. And then you add the wind!

Somehow, I managed to pb by 22s, going 1:19:35. Without doubt, it's the shoes. The vaporfly hype is real. Honestly. They actually feel like cheating in some regards. Although I'd say in the finishing area around the time I passed through, it was genuinely the case that large swathes of the field are now wearing them.


Wow. Shoes or not, thatís some time Stenard. Well done.
Cool
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Poet




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
The vaporfly hype is real. Honestly.


THEY ARE £220 ~#*$ pounds sunshine :O
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Poet




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some awesome images of heel striking and how to apply the brakes with each stride on their website/blurb



I conclude, a shoe for the influenced
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fruit thief




Joined: 18 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guy in my running club is on his 2nd pair. Dropped his 10 mile time over the winter from 59 minutes to 56 minutes & reckons it's the shoes.

If so ... how???

Being a sceptic and a natural tightwad - not to mention old and slow- I won't be getting a pair any time soon. But woosh.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ That looks a lot like the Zoom Fly in the pic above (I have 2 pairs of those) have they made the midsole a bit 'less' on the latest Vapourfly model? The Vapourfly has always been too pricey for me!

Just snagged a pair of Zoom Vomero 14 online for £66, which is a great price; I'll be using these for Ironman this season, as I do like a bit of full-length-air for Iron distance. The Zoom Fly is just foam; great for up to HIM for me.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet wrote:
some awesome images of heel striking and how to apply the brakes with each stride on their website/blurb

I conclude, a shoe for the influenced

What do you mean by the first bit? Are you being anti-heel striking? If so, I'm fairly sure all current research states that people should run however they naturally run, and if that's heel striking then sobeit. You can find images of elites heel striking.

Plus, I've read third party analysis on the vaporflys that actually state they give more benefit to heel strikers. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0811-2

You may conclude a "shoe for the influenced", but if you're saying that purely based on some snotty* assessment off 2mins looking online, then forgive me for telling you you are wrong.

I've done my own testing in the vaporflys on steady endurance running ... at 150 HR I can run c4:45/km in my normal training shoes. In the vaporflys I'm running about 4:20/km. I've repeated that assessment two or three times. You may remain skeptical, that's your choice, but from someone who has run in them, I'm telling you the hype is real. When sub 70 min half marathoners are telling me the same thing, and when you see the kind of stories as provided by fruit thief saying the same thing, there is something to it.

There was also some non-scientific statistical strava study that concluded the vaporfly made a pronounced difference (on average) versus other shoes: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-vaporfly-shoe-strava.html

EDIT - oh, and the other significant benefit that I have experienced, and is widely reported, is the lack of "toll" running in these shoes takes on your legs. I'm normally trashed after a hard HM. Last night, I ran another 7k to top up the volume and felt absolutely fine.

*that remark may come across as snotty myself, but it's quite annoying when someone dismisses something out of hand without any evidence whatsoever, but just "because".
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Last edited by stenard on Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet wrote:
stenard wrote:
The vaporfly hype is real. Honestly.


THEY ARE £220 ~#*$ pounds sunshine :O

And? Go tell someone with Zipp wheels that they're idiots for buying them too. If people are prepared to pay the price, then they're worth it.

Personally, I was a little dubious and it was a freak ability to buy a pair in the Oxford Street store on Black Friday with 30% off that made me give them a try. At that price, they were a fraction more than my normal distance shoes.

Having now used them, I'd say £209 is a bargain. I've never got any equivalent kind of speed return on investment in any other piece of swim-bike-run equipment. Personally, if you're a reasonable runner with sound neutral form, I'd go so far as to say, based on my own experience, there's no piece of equipment currently available that gives more bang for the buck.

People will happily drop £2.5k on a pair of deep dish wheels that they "save for racing". These shoes, based on my experience, will save a similar amount of time for 10% of the price.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being an aspirational northerner, I'd have thought Poet would have been on-side with the £209 trainers. It's horses for courses, and I'm sure plenty of people who think £209 for some trainers, have spent similar amounts or more on something else equally as 'unnecessary'.

We spent an impromptu £81.50 on a Saturday night dinner at a very average Italian restaurant with the kids & another family....makes my £66 Vomeros look like great value Rolling Eyes Wink
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Pedro Peru




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Poet wrote:
stenard wrote:
The vaporfly hype is real. Honestly.


THEY ARE £220 ~#*$ pounds sunshine :O

And? Go tell someone with Zipp wheels that they're idiots for buying them too. If people are prepared to pay the price, then they're worth it.

Personally, I was a little dubious and it was a freak ability to buy a pair in the Oxford Street store on Black Friday with 30% off that made me give them a try. At that price, they were a fraction more than my normal distance shoes.

Having now used them, I'd say £209 is a bargain. I've never got any equivalent kind of speed return on investment in any other piece of swim-bike-run equipment. Personally, if you're a reasonable runner with sound neutral form, I'd go so far as to say, based on my own experience, there's no piece of equipment currently available that gives more bang for the buck.

People will happily drop £2.5k on a pair of deep dish wheels that they "save for racing". These shoes, based on my experience, will save a similar amount of time for 10% of the price.

Hopefully there'll be some Chinese knock offs on ebay soon Wink
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, good point. I'm actually currently reading Shoe Dog, and there's a little bit in there about some of the early far eastern factories creating top quality knock offs of the Nike's of the era. Apparently they were that good that along with sending cease and desist orders, Nike brought those factories onboard as suppliers!

Thought of one other thing that's a massive benefit of the vaporflys ... I don't get blisters. I can run for miles in training in all my shoes and generally be fine. Even at race pace. Yet I've never failed to run an actual race and not get really bad blisters. Until yesterday.

Maybe I'm just bigging them up to justify the cost in my own mind, but I reiterate my point above that I now would buy them at RRP as, for me at least, they are that beneficial.
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Last edited by stenard on Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inspired by one of Jorgan's runs earlier this year, I did a 13.8km run today (in the snow) in 62 mins, with a 19:58 5km in the middle.... it was undoubtedly the hardest 5km I have ever run.

Very solid week's training last week, with improvements on run, bike and swim, new VO2 max and new ftp

Impressive new HM PB from Stenard, 3:45m/km is pretty amazing
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
Inspired by one of Jorgan's runs earlier this year, I did a 13.8km run today (in the snow) in 62 mins, with a 19:58 5km in the middle.... it was undoubtedly the hardest 5km I have ever run.

Very solid week's training last week, with improvements on run, bike and swim, new VO2 max and new ftp

Impressive new HM PB from Stenard, 3:45m/km is pretty amazing

Nice work. In the middle of a tough training week, a run like that definitely sounds a toughie.

Thanks for the shout out. I would agree in many respects. It genuinely shocked me. On Wednesday last week I did 3*1k reps on the track as part of a longer run (coming in at 3:26; 3:27; 3:27) and that felt borderline sprinting. It's quite amazing what a couple of days taper, and a race day atmosphere / mindset can do. Those 1k reps made me realise how impressive some of the people on here are who have done sub10 minute 3k's.
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Poet




Joined: 13 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

£209 (corrected from earlier price) is quite a lot for a pair of running trainers.
Whilst I don't baulk at over £209 for a pair of trainers or shoes, I somehow find it hard to stomach for running trainers. Odd.

Jorgan - That image is from the Vaporfly 4% Nike site.

fruit thief - 3 minutes over an hour is madness. 5% improvement. Very nice. Placebo effect?

stenard - No. I am not anti-heel striking. But it (heel) strikes me as odd that they'd use that as a marketing photo. The running is leaning behind their leading leg, which tends to slow you down. Anecdotally, of course, seeing as this is all anecdotal.

Study...

Funding
This study was supported by a contract from Nike, Inc. with the University of Colorado, Boulder.

Conflict of interest
Wouter Hoogkamer, Shalaya Kipp, and Jesse H. Frank have no conflicts of interest relevant to the content of this article. Emily M. Farina and Geng Luo are employees of Nike, Inc. Rodger Kram is a paid consultant to Nike, Inc.

Strava Analysis - Hmm...buy a new pair of shoes, you are maybe faster as they feel nicer. You do a marathon, learn something, do another one, do slightly better.
People who are dropping $250 on a non-cushioned neutral shoe will always be at the pointy end (anecdotally, of course)

Your commment didn't come across as snotty, mine however, did!
They are *all* over Instagram and the influencers - FlyKnits to go with 2XU leggings and a Lululemon sweater are *it*
That is where I got the "influenced" comment from.

IN SAYING ALL OF THIS...

...I am now on the hunt for some VaporFlys's...


Last edited by Poet on Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:02 am; edited 2 times in total
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good running Stenard.

Maybe I should get them instead of the Adizero Sub 2?
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