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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1982

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet wrote:
Strava Analysis - Hmm...buy a new pair of shoes, you are maybe faster as they feel nicer. You do a marathon, learn something, do another one, do slightly better.
People who are dropping $250 on a non-cushioned neutral shoe will always be at the pointy end (anecdotally, of course)

The thing I found interesting about that anecdotal analysis was the two points about people who ran subsequent marathons not in vaporflys.

Firstly, that there just werent that many. Even if placebo, that most runners are trying them and sticking with them is fairly compelling evidence most people have the same reaction as I've had after my first proper race in them.

Secondly, those that did switch away were significantly slower!

Poet wrote:
IN SAYING ALL OF THIS...

...I am now on the hunt for some VaporFlys's in the Chester/Manchester/London region.
The blue one's are actually now available in most sizes online on the Nike website. Topcashback would bring them down to 200. Since bringing out the second colour, they seem to be more readily available.

I did get word of the next iteration of them landing in the not too distant future from a Champs wave runner on Sunday (he gets his from Nike for free Rolling Eyes ), who knows a Nike employee.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Poet wrote:
some awesome images of heel striking and how to apply the brakes with each stride on their website/blurb

I conclude, a shoe for the influenced

What do you mean by the first bit? Are you being anti-heel striking? If so, I'm fairly sure all current research states that people should run however they naturally run, and if that's heel striking then sobeit. You can find images of elites heel striking.


no one runs naturally...

of course you can find images of elite runners heel striking...but understanding why and how they can achieve that is worth a little research....

worth adding that the heel striking = braking is correct, but so is forefoot striking...the point is that the braking effect of either can be influenced by improved form...

iirc, minimum velocity of the pelvis (the deceleration effect of footstrike*) accounts for up to 14.2% of variance in performance...

*edited to add the deceleration of footstrike contributes "in part"
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Last edited by explorerJC on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 1351
Location: Middlesbrough

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great running at the weekend Stennard.

WRT the Vaporfly's, although I'd find it hard to spend 200+ on some race shoes (with a limited lifespan), plenty of people do spend money on things like ceramic bearings and oversize pulleys that probably have less impact on speed.

I suspect they do improve times, how much probably depends on each runner and what they normally run in. E.g. compared to my stock Brooks Adrenaline I'm fairly sure that even wearing a pair of Brooks\Adidas flats gives me a boost.

I must admit that I am likely to try some at some point, and when I did London in 3:00:34 I'd have definitely spent that 210 if I thought it would give me 35+ seconds, and that would be a lot less than 4%

Jeff
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Poet




Joined: 13 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
The blue one's are actually now available in most sizes online on the Nike website. Topcashback would bring them down to 200. Since bringing out the second colour, they seem to be more readily available.


I have some Nike Zoom Fly 2 in a EUR45.5, is the VapourFly similar sizing?
Also, 30 day "risk free" trial on Nike.com (i.e. wear them for up to 30 days and return for free...)

Found this, stating that they run about 0.5 of a size smaller than other Nike running trainers:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8548730

The sizing of casual Nike is all of the place.

Also, longevity - the Web states ~100 miles.
Does that seem about right?
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet wrote:

...I am now on the hunt for some VaporFlys's...


Rofl
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am following this with a keen interest - i don't think i'll ever be able to justfy throwing that sort of money on pair of running shoes, but the anecdotes on here are interesting.

On a similar, non scientific level i have tried a few pairs of the On Cloudsurfers on the 30 day trials, and i swear that for the same effort and HR i was always running quicker, especially downhill. But t was the cost that always turned me away - i'll pay 80-90 but that's my max. And i expect to get some good mileage out of those. Currently use Pegs for my past 4 pairs, but i'm adding in New Balance Fresh Foam Beacons to my road rotation (had the Borocays a few years ago and loved them, only downside was durability).

I am intrigued and would love to give these Nike's a crack in a race!

An Stenard - you mentioned earlier about the <3km pace thing baffling you somewhat. But it realy does come down to conversion. My HM PB is not much quiker than your one, and my mara PB (Manchester 2015 - the short course is wiped from the records!!) is an injury hit London where i had a solid 20 min positive split with my knee giving up for 3.0X. Again probably slower than you one, yet i have run a 9.20 for 3km without ever having trained specifically for track/speed stuff. I find it hard to convert that raw speed into speed endurance, and all my PBs i actually consider to be a bit soft!
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet wrote:
stenard wrote:
The blue one's are actually now available in most sizes online on the Nike website. Topcashback would bring them down to 200. Since bringing out the second colour, they seem to be more readily available.


I have some Nike Zoom Fly 2 in a EUR45.5, is the VapourFly similar sizing?
Also, 30 day "risk free" trial on Nike.com (i.e. wear them for up to 30 days and return for free...)

Found this, stating that they run about 0.5 of a size smaller than other Nike running trainers:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8548730

The sizing of casual Nike is all of the place.

Also, longevity - the Web states ~100 miles.
Does that seem about right?

I've read other sites which say they've been good for 300-400km, but I'm certainly "saving" them for London now.

Sizing wise, it's actually the zoom fly I've read that's off. Everything I read was the vaporfly was aligned with all other running shoes, and that's what I found. I'm an 8 in all my Brooks, and I'm an 8 in the vaporfly.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experience, I've found the Zoom Fly sizing the same as all Nike shoes i.e. the dozens of other pairs I've had.
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YKK




Joined: 23 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually took the plunge last Friday before all of the above, so this has all been good to read.

Yesterday I ran a 5k in my (now old) race shoes to bench mark and hope to have received the 4%'s for next weeks race.

A guy I was chatting with who wears them (and is a 2:35 mara guy in days gone by) says that they don't really make you faster, but it is more that your legs fatigue a lot less. So maybe there is not much difference in a 5k, but really should make a difference in last 10k of a marathon.

Anyway I have 1 maybe 2 more years I think before I start to slow down from what I read, so that was my justification...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YKK wrote:
they don't really make you faster, but it is more that your legs fatigue a lot less. So maybe there is not much difference in a 5k, but really should make a difference in last 10k of a marathon.


This is why I've gone for the Vomero for my Ironman this year; the full length air sole should help when I inevitably start heel striking and generally flagging in the marathon. Two out of 3 of my sub 3:35 runs have been using full-length air midsole shoes.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a crappy ride in this morning that was, managed to average a paltry 20.7kph into the teeth of the wind! Best thing is that it's switching around during the day, so no tailwind home Rolling Eyes

I had to replace my commuter tyres last week after shredding one on the trainer (blow-out). Guy at the LBS recommended Spesh All Condition Armadillo, as they are "virtually impenetrable". Yeah, but they make Gatorskins feel like Dugast tubs Mad I think I will ditch them come the warmer weather.
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Tri'ing Swimmer




Joined: 15 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a half day annual leave booked as missing quite a lot of weekend rides; was aiming to try a lap of IMUK but went on gym wattbike instead with the wind. First time taking iPad in with me and managed 2:45 on there at least.
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fruit thief




Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2754

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
the full length air sole should help


Careful how you say that Wink

Bath half on Sunday for me. Really enjoying the taper - after 40-50 miles per week since November, I'd forgotten how much I like not running!
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tri'ing Swimmer wrote:
I had a half day annual leave booked as missing quite a lot of weekend rides; was aiming to try a lap of IMUK but went on gym wattbike instead with the wind. First time taking iPad in with me and managed 2:45 on there at least.


do you have the gpx for this?
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Tri'ing Swimmer wrote:
I had a half day annual leave booked as missing quite a lot of weekend rides; was aiming to try a lap of IMUK but went on gym wattbike instead with the wind. First time taking iPad in with me and managed 2:45 on there at least.


do you have the gpx for this?


He uploaded it to Strava, it's totally legit.
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