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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've followed/supported Team Sky since inception and loved their glories.

I'm not na´ve enough to think they're 100% clean, but I don't believe they're cheating. They're pushing the boundaries of the rules.

Brailsford himself admitted if there was a line, they would get as close to it as possible without crossing that line.

It's no defence, but everyone does it and more.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
I've followed/supported Team Sky since inception and loved their glories.

I'm not na´ve enough to think they're 100% clean, but I don't believe they're cheating. They're pushing the boundaries of the rules.

Brailsford himself admitted if there was a line, they would get as close to it as possible without crossing that line.

It's no defence, but everyone does it and more.


1% not clean is still cheating....

I'd rather not have had the wins if they couldn't play fair...

My beef remains with the idiot who sanctioned the dual roles - I wouldnt particularly care what sky did on their own, they'd just be another bunch who will live sad miserable lives...but true or not, they have tarnished GB cycling for generations to come
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Slowtwitch. They seem divided on Lance, what's the general view on here?

Move on? Keep despising him for it? Couldn't care less?

Me? I like Lance. Can't condone what he did or how he went about it, however, I still think he was a tremendous athlete and it wasn't just the PED's that won him those 7 TDF's.

No other doper has been as vilified or treated as harshly.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
Re: Slowtwitch. They seem divided on Lance, what's the general view on here?

Move on? Keep despising him for it? Couldn't care less?

Me? I like Lance. Can't condone what he did or how he went about it, however, I still think he was a tremendous athlete and it wasn't just the PED's that won him those 7 TDF's.

No other doper has been as vilified or treated as harshly.


No other doper vilified so many other people or treated them so harshly...

There isn't a cyclist on this planet that isn't a tremendous athlete or trains his/her nuts off....but there's training hard knowing you are going to lose and training hard knowing you are going to win...one of these strikes me as being a bit easier...
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awildt




Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 618
Location: sunny (!) NW

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
Re: Slowtwitch. They seem divided on Lance, what's the general view on here?

Move on? Keep despising him for it? Couldn't care less?

Me? I like Lance. Can't condone what he did or how he went about it, however, I still think he was a tremendous athlete and it wasn't just the PED's that won him those 7 TDF's.

No other doper has been as vilified or treated as harshly.


http://www.paddyupton.com/its-not-about-the-truth.aspx

That article about sums up your thinking and why most people don't believe anymore. And what the film The Program portrayed quite well.

I think Dave Brailsford is not far off this type of character just not quite so good - less years of practice. Lance had his "beloved" single mum to manipulate all his life.
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user134098




Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After Armstrong was caught. He said he was going to help the authorities with what he knew, and that way he'd have had his ban reduced so that he could compete again in 8 years - but he chose not to.

I don't despise people who haven't harmed me personally, and I don't think anyone else really can either. I don't think he should be allowed to compete or even participate again, however - because he turned that chance down.

Wheelmen is an exhaustive account of the era, worth a read IMO
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wheelmen-Reed-Albergotti-ebook/dp/B00E5D5TA4
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Armstrong made his bed, and he pretty much admits that now, or has been forced to admit he was a piece-of-work.

Look at all the other EPO dopers who still have Tour wins, Ulrich, Pantani, Riis and of course the only one who hasn't publicly admitted it, Indurain....they are/were all nice guys who didn't sh1t on people. Being a douchebag is what cost LA his victories.
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Cobbie




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Yeah, but we're talking about intramuscular injections now, not just a few puffs. Oh, and why would you need to 'courier' a package of decongestant to another country. They are widely available, they have pharmacies on the Continent.

This is reminiscent of the LA saga, as they slowly chipped away.


dont dispute the questions being asked as Sky are far from open and there are a lot of questions needing answering. In some ways I dont blame them, confidentiality of medical records etc BUT they are so far in the shit now its damage limitation time and they must open up.

As for the injections, on one hand i can see why. Athlete A had a torrid 2010 apparently because of some major allergies being triggered. Nothing you can do once they've hit though so in 2011 rather than waste another years work they do what any good sports team would, they prepare prior to the event to make sure it cant reoccur. It was all signed off by the independent doctors etc so I have no problem there. They would have had to prove it was the only option. Unlike in previous eras its not a case of the team doctor saying take this and just signing it off with a few quid to the UCI.

As for the courier, again questions , lots of questions but face value after what happened to Alain Baxter would you as a team principle take the risk of an over the counter option in a foreign country (today we have the GlobalDRO so its not such an issue as long as you in in a supported country)

then there is the BUT. If I can "answer questions" as easy as this, then why isnt the millionaire team principle who's taken the countries lottery funding for years able to just pre prepare a decent statement and supply the information. The fact hes not so prepared though also points to the fact nothing dodgy has gone on but they cant really explain making it look suspicious. If they was dodgy they'd have spent weeks covering their backsides getting stories straight and paying people off like LA! Im torn though I would still like to believe they push boundaries without stepping over them.

A couple of things:

First, the package. I think hammerer is spot on, Sky decided early on not to trust anything they couldn't verify. So, I think it almost certain that they would fly something out to France rather than get it over the counter there. As others point out, that's a bit silly and somewhat paranoid but the Alan Baxter case happened because of just that kind of misunderstanding of treatment composition.

On the whole medical records thing, I'm going to offer a defence which I'm not sure I fully agree with but I suspect something like this has contributed to the problem as exposed this week.
In my work as an improvement consultant, I see companies all the time who don't have proper, complete, repeatable ways of doing things and these are big companies I'm talking about who've been doing things for a long time (i.e. not relative start-ups like Sky).
For example, I did a long project (over a year) for one of the UK's largest retail banks to sort out a crisis in their cash processing sites - they had no standard ways of processing the cash, didn't check the money coming in matched what it was supposed to be and couldn't balance the books repeatedly. However, they had very good systems for making sure no cash was stolen and that they never sent out more than they were supposed to - so in their minds, they had control. I can explain more but the analogy is just meant to show that companies regularly and repeatedly don't do all the things they should be doing.

So, getting back to Sky, I suspect that their focus was completely on the athletes and their performance, how to keep finding marginal gains etc. The record keeping (and this is common in small organisations) wasn't a priority.
So, I'm sure that medical records for the athletes were complete but probably nobody thought to keep records of when drugs arrived, left and were used. I would think nobody really thought it very important because they knew what the athletes had taken. So, they had the receipts because they needed to know what they'd spent and they will I'm sure work out what was used which will eventually show whether the logistics in the middle balance or not. Even if they don't, it doesn't mean there was cheating and even if they do it doesn't mean there wasn't.

FWIW, I agree with the thinking that Sky have pushed every rule to it's limit without cheating, at least not deliberately. I suspect that in performance sport you have to, to be as successful as they have been. If the line were stable and never changed, this probably wouldn't be a problem but things do change - perceptions as much as anything - and the need to be able to prove every last thing is now causing them issues.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cobbie wrote:
[quote
A couple of things:

First, the package. I think hammerer is spot on, Sky decided early on not to trust anything they couldn't verify. So, I think it almost certain that they would fly something out to France rather than get it over the counter there.

So, I'm sure that medical records for the athletes were complete but probably nobody thought to keep records of when drugs arrived, left and were used. I would think nobody really thought it very important because they knew what the athletes had taken. .


i can well believe they flew something out....but i can't believe that they couldn't remember what it was and/or passed the problem on to another athlete...inexcusable...

Some medical records were probably kept...but not stored centrally? Really? Inexcusable....

Marginal gains without keeping detailed records of training loads, recovery intervals, power, cadence, HR, equipment, nutrition, hydration, and medication detailing when, where and how? Unlikely..highly unlikely...
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Cobbie




Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 7419
Location: Chester

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Cobbie wrote:

A couple of things:

First, the package. I think hammerer is spot on, Sky decided early on not to trust anything they couldn't verify. So, I think it almost certain that they would fly something out to France rather than get it over the counter there.

So, I'm sure that medical records for the athletes were complete but probably nobody thought to keep records of when drugs arrived, left and were used. I would think nobody really thought it very important because they knew what the athletes had taken. .


i can well believe they flew something out....but i can't believe that they couldn't remember what it was and/or passed the problem on to another athlete...inexcusable...

Some medical records were probably kept...but not stored centrally? Really? Inexcusable....

Marginal gains without keeping detailed records of training loads, recovery intervals, power, cadence, HR, equipment, nutrition, hydration, and medication detailing when, where and how? Unlikely..highly unlikely...

Yes, I find it very hard to believe they wouldn't record what they flew out and that's the bit that doesn't sit well with me. However, I still think the most likely explanation is that they ran out of something that their star rider needed and so did whatever they had to do to get the medicine out to France.

What's in my mind is that there was a business system to monitor how much was spent (so they have all the receipts for that) and then there was a performance monitoring system for the athletes. I've not seen anything to say they don't have training loads etc so not sure where you get that from (although wouldn't be hard as I don't read the cycling press).

The bit in the middle though, that's where issues often occur - what you might call stock control. I bet there was a regular check of the medicines and they topped up anything that was low but never bothered with a mass balance (the kind of thing an EAP system does if you've come across how big companies control inventory) or recorded what was taken out.

I've also seen organisations buy for more stock than they needed because they got it at a better unit price or because they were worried about running out. Unless cost control is a real issue, then organisations tend not to worry too much about that sort of thing.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cobbie wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Cobbie wrote:

A couple of things:

First, the package. I think hammerer is spot on, Sky decided early on not to trust anything they couldn't verify. So, I think it almost certain that they would fly something out to France rather than get it over the counter there.

So, I'm sure that medical records for the athletes were complete but probably nobody thought to keep records of when drugs arrived, left and were used. I would think nobody really thought it very important because they knew what the athletes had taken. .


i can well believe they flew something out....but i can't believe that they couldn't remember what it was and/or passed the problem on to another athlete...inexcusable...

Some medical records were probably kept...but not stored centrally? Really? Inexcusable....

Marginal gains without keeping detailed records of training loads, recovery intervals, power, cadence, HR, equipment, nutrition, hydration, and medication detailing when, where and how? Unlikely..highly unlikely...

Yes, I find it very hard to believe they wouldn't record what they flew out and that's the bit that doesn't sit well with me. However, I still think the most likely explanation is that they ran out of something that their star rider needed and so did whatever they had to do to get the medicine out to France.

What's in my mind is that there was a business system to monitor how much was spent (so they have all the receipts for that) and then there was a performance monitoring system for the athletes. I've not seen anything to say they don't have training loads etc so not sure where you get that from (although wouldn't be hard as I don't read the cycling press).

The bit in the middle though, that's where issues often occur - what you might call stock control. I bet there was a regular check of the medicines and they topped up anything that was low but never bothered with a mass balance (the kind of thing an EAP system does if you've come across how big companies control inventory) or recorded what was taken out.

I've also seen organisations buy for more stock than they needed because they got it at a better unit price or because they were worried about running out. Unless cost control is a real issue, then organisations tend not to worry too much about that sort of thing.


But you don't fly something out and then claim it is for an athlete who, not only wasn't part of that team, wasn't even in the country...that's a cover story...

I don't believe any of the team took so much as ibuprofen without it being logged...that the records aren't available again strikes me as a cover up...

What is missing are the checks and balances that should be provided by a governing body...the trouble is that they were in bed together...we used to call that the GDR
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The box of Testosterone patches 'mistakenly' delivered to a Sky team doctor was returned unused of course Laughing

'I think I heard a shot...'
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
The box of Testosterone patches 'mistakenly' delivered to a Sky team doctor was returned unused of course Laughing

'I think I heard a shot...'


oooh...please tell me more...
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that Sir Brad and a certain doctor are now being hung out to dry to save Brailsford's arse. Hes ruthless, will stop at nothing to save himself and not derail Team Sky GB HSBC
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
The box of Testosterone patches 'mistakenly' delivered to a Sky team doctor was returned unused of course Laughing

'I think I heard a shot...'


oooh...please tell me more...


Just Google it; was in the Times & Guardian yesterday.
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