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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the above, and in another manner as well.
The line is drawn - by WADA - and then people have to abide by those rules. Inevitably, there is an "arms race" to get as close to that line without going over it, but that's the same in all aspects of all sports - bike frame geometry, clothing, etc.

It's all very easy to say doping (i.e EPO) is "bad", and that not doping (i.e. drinking pure water) is "good", but there is a whole cavern in between where that simplistic moral outlook falls down.

What about a cup of coffee? Caffeine is a proven stimulant? What about protein shakes? Just eat natural protein high foods without resorting to a supplement? What about salt tablets? Why not just live with your genetics that make you sweat at a higher concentration of sodium?

I'm 100% in the camp of doping is bad, and I want a "clean" sport. I just don't think I'm as naive as some people seem to be as to the complications of defining what "clean" actually means, or more accurately, what we want clean to mean.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Like the rest of us, you have to find an alternative employment which suits your abilities/limitations...


so because you get an illness that can be treated on certain meds for a couple of weeks you must give up your career? Thats harsh!


that's life...or you sit it out and go again when you are well like the rest of us..
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
I agree with the above, and in another manner as well.
The line is drawn - by WADA - and then people have to abide by those rules. Inevitably, there is an "arms race" to get as close to that line without going over it, but that's the same in all aspects of all sports - bike frame geometry, clothing, etc.

It's all very easy to say doping (i.e EPO) is "bad", and that not doping (i.e. drinking pure water) is "good", but there is a whole cavern in between where that simplistic moral outlook falls down.

What about a cup of coffee? Caffeine is a proven stimulant? What about protein shakes? Just eat natural protein high foods without resorting to a supplement? What about salt tablets? Why not just live with your genetics that make you sweat at a higher concentration of sodium?

I'm 100% in the camp of doping is bad, and I want a "clean" sport. I just don't think I'm as naive as some people seem to be as to the complications of defining what "clean" actually means, or more accurately, what we want clean to mean.


indeed, so we leave it to WADA who seem to be making progress in defining what is acceptable or not..
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the issue for me remains the lack of checks and balances within BC...what Sky did or didn't do is of lesser importance...
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delivery for Team Sky???

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-39203235
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
the issue for me remains the lack of checks and balances within BC...what Sky did or didn't do is of lesser importance...

I can agree with that.
All I was saying is effectively agreeing with hammerer. BC/Sky's issue here appears to be about blurred lines of governance, and poor record keeping. Not that they have actually been accused of breaking doping rules. As the BBC articles constantly say,

"There is no suggestion that either he [Wiggins] or Team Sky, his former team, have broken any rules."
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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Team Sky's whole shtick is that what differentiates them is the marginal gains. Taking care of the 1% issues that other teams don't bother with. That (IMO) is a complete contrast to the current line of "we tried to organise a piss up in a brewery and couldn't manage it". Our Dr has lost the notes, we have no records, all that triamcinolone wasn't for us, no we didn't order T patches.

If this was a Spanish team not many would give them the benefit of the doubt. I think at the very best they have blurred the lines between using drugs they're allowed to use, albeit with a TUE when needed, but that there wasn't really a medical need but a performance need and being actually clean. Actually clean being you can use the drugs when there's an actual medical need.

They drastically improved results after hiring Geert Leinders.
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro Peru wrote:
Team Sky's whole shtick is that what differentiates them is the marginal gains. Taking care of the 1% issues that other teams don't bother with. That (IMO) is a complete contrast to the current line of "we tried to organise a piss up in a brewery and couldn't manage it". Our Dr has lost the notes, we have no records, all that triamcinolone wasn't for us, no we didn't order T patches.

If this was a Spanish team not many would give them the benefit of the doubt. I think at the very best they have blurred the lines between using drugs they're allowed to use, albeit with a TUE when needed, but that there wasn't really a medical need but a performance need and being actually clean. Actually clean being you can use the drugs when there's an actual medical need.

They drastically improved results after hiring Geert Leinders.


I didnt see a witch hunt aimed at the supposedly super clean Garmin team when Danielson tested positive or Astana (pro tour, conti and women's positives in recent years!) , Moviestar , Contador and his beef, Valverde, Ex dopers running teams so I'm not sure I get the point that if this was another country as they seem to be getting away with real doping and not just the fact TUE's were applied for.

Russia has a state sponsored doping program and covered it by breaking into labs and swapping samples, Jamaica...the less said the better, Kenyans training in remote mountain locations with no way of being tested but all we are debating is Team Sky applying for TUE's and one package that was delivered 6 years ago.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:


Russia has a state sponsored doping program and covered it by breaking into labs and swapping samples, Jamaica...the less said the better, Kenyans training in remote mountain locations with no way of being tested but all we are debating is Team Sky applying for TUE's and one package containing Vicks because the team leader's chest needed a rub.


FTFY mate... Smile
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KingstonGraham




Joined: 21 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Team Sky's whole shtick is that what differentiates them is the marginal gains. Taking care of the 1% issues that other teams don't bother with. That (IMO) is a complete contrast to the current line of "we tried to organise a piss up in a brewery and couldn't manage it". Our Dr has lost the notes, we have no records, all that triamcinolone wasn't for us, no we didn't order T patches.

If this was a Spanish team not many would give them the benefit of the doubt. I think at the very best they have blurred the lines between using drugs they're allowed to use, albeit with a TUE when needed, but that there wasn't really a medical need but a performance need and being actually clean. Actually clean being you can use the drugs when there's an actual medical need.

They drastically improved results after hiring Geert Leinders.


I didnt see a witch hunt aimed at the supposedly super clean Garmin team when Danielson tested positive or Astana (pro tour, conti and women's positives in recent years!) , Moviestar , Contador and his beef, Valverde, Ex dopers running teams so I'm not sure I get the point that if this was another country as they seem to be getting away with real doping and not just the fact TUE's were applied for.

Russia has a state sponsored doping program and covered it by breaking into labs and swapping samples, Jamaica...the less said the better, Kenyans training in remote mountain locations with no way of being tested but all we are debating is Team Sky applying for TUE's and one package that was delivered 6 years ago.


To be fair, the Mail on Sunday did break the Russian scandal. Not that many people in this country would be interested in Astana stinking to high heaven, so they don't get the resources. Not that it needed much investigation when they had so many failed tests.

And you can't really criticise the UKAD or the select committee for only investigating a British team.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well.

It is a fact that Wiggins received 3 injections of a PED on the WADA banned list, before three Grand Tour starts. The injections were administered with the intention of increasing his physiological capacity at the TdF and Giro d'Italia.

The question, is whether Wiggins' TUE for Triamcinolone can be genuinely justified, not least the timing right before major events.

He doped with the permission of the UCI. How much do we trust the UCI during those years (2011-13) Question
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
hammerer wrote:


Russia has a state sponsored doping program and covered it by breaking into labs and swapping samples, Jamaica...the less said the better, Kenyans training in remote mountain locations with no way of being tested but all we are debating is Team Sky applying for TUE's and one package containing Vicks because the team leader's chest needed a rub.


FTFY mate... Smile



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hammerer




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingstonGraham wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
Team Sky's whole shtick is that what differentiates them is the marginal gains. Taking care of the 1% issues that other teams don't bother with. That (IMO) is a complete contrast to the current line of "we tried to organise a piss up in a brewery and couldn't manage it". Our Dr has lost the notes, we have no records, all that triamcinolone wasn't for us, no we didn't order T patches.

If this was a Spanish team not many would give them the benefit of the doubt. I think at the very best they have blurred the lines between using drugs they're allowed to use, albeit with a TUE when needed, but that there wasn't really a medical need but a performance need and being actually clean. Actually clean being you can use the drugs when there's an actual medical need.

They drastically improved results after hiring Geert Leinders.


I didnt see a witch hunt aimed at the supposedly super clean Garmin team when Danielson tested positive or Astana (pro tour, conti and women's positives in recent years!) , Moviestar , Contador and his beef, Valverde, Ex dopers running teams so I'm not sure I get the point that if this was another country as they seem to be getting away with real doping and not just the fact TUE's were applied for.

Russia has a state sponsored doping program and covered it by breaking into labs and swapping samples, Jamaica...the less said the better, Kenyans training in remote mountain locations with no way of being tested but all we are debating is Team Sky applying for TUE's and one package that was delivered 6 years ago.


To be fair, the Mail on Sunday did break the Russian scandal. Not that many people in this country would be interested in Astana stinking to high heaven, so they don't get the resources. Not that it needed much investigation when they had so many failed tests.

And you can't really criticise the UKAD or the select committee for only investigating a British team.


you are correct and I don't blame UKAD at all. I do blame the select committee as in my mind our government should be doing what we voted them in for and that's running the country not getting involved in sport when they have Brexit to deal with Wink Our press though, rather than looking at the wider issue have fallen into the trap Putin set so that they will now hound and dig until they find a micro shred of evidence of any wrong doing and destroy BC and Team Sky (sponsored by a rival news agency conveniently). Most of the way this looks has been caused by poor reporting and misrepresentation of the facts. If all you did was read the Fail you'd be forgiven for believing the whole of BC is corrupt and have run a large scale doping program for 10 years.

Im not defending Sky Bc or anyone else, Im not sure what is the truth either as the old adage no smoke without fire and the similarities with Postal are frightening but I am erring on the side that there has been a few cock ups and subsequent cover ups that when added together look terrible for all concerned. Added the lack of statement until yesterday its been one big PR disaster. The fact also the press keep on about TUE's like it is real doping is also not helping and its now at that stage the muds stuck for good and they are tarnished. No one will ever believe a Sky victory going forward.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
Well.

It is a fact that Wiggins received 3 injections of a PED on the WADA banned list, before three Grand Tour starts. The injections were administered with the intention of increasing his physiological capacity at the TdF and Giro d'Italia.

The question, is whether Wiggins' TUE for Triamcinolone can be genuinely justified, not least the timing right before major events.

He doped with the permission of the UCI. How much do we trust the UCI during those years (2011-13) Question

But that's a very different fact pattern to US Postal, who just did what they wanted behind closed doors, and when caught either paid people off or retrospectively fabricated prescriptions.

Being open and honest about what you want to do, making the correct applications, and having it all documented (to the extent it can then be hacked into a shared publicly), is totally different. You don't ask, you don't get, and if the multiple independent doctors signed off on the request, then why would Sky/Wiggins not avail themselves of what has been approved?

I definitely agree it was suspicious timing wise, which is why I do see an argument for a public database of this stuff. Why not if its only going to be released via hacking anyway? And at least then the kangaroo court can play out in real time. Probably the biggest black mark against Sky in my book is their refusal to sign up to MPCC - as if so, Wiggins wouldn't have been able to ride under the code of that voluntary agreement.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UK tax payers' money isn't funding the Jamaicans or Kenyans. Wiggins is a Knight of the Realm, as is Brailsford. That's why it's a story in the UK media.

Surely no-one believes the Kenyans and Usain Bolt are clean.
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